472: Upper Body Training for Runners — Why, How Often, and What to Do

When most runners think about strength training, they immediately picture squats, lunges, and deadlifts. After all, running is a leg sport... right?

Not exactly.

In this episode, Kevin and I are breaking down one of the biggest misconceptions in running: that your upper body doesn't matter. I'm sharing why building strength in your shoulders, back, chest, and core can actually help you run more efficiently, maintain better posture, breathe easier, and reduce unnecessary stress on your lower back. If you've skipped upper body training because you thought it wasn't important or worried it would make you bulky, I think this conversation might change your mind.

We also talk about how often runners should train their upper body, how much weight you actually need to use, and why chasing endless high-rep workouts isn't the answer. I'll finish by walking you through my favorite upper body exercises for runners and explain exactly why each one deserves a place in your training. My goal isn't to help you become a bodybuilder. It's to help you become a stronger, healthier, more resilient runner.

00:48 Pushup Myth Busted

02:10 Strength vs Mass Debate

04:57 Running Economy Basics

07:17 Arm Swing Mechanics

13:02 Posture and Breathing

18:06 Spine Rotation Stress

24:11 Breathing Mobility Fixes

28:11 How Often to Lift

29:47 Sets Reps and Load

36:20 Bone Density Benefits

39:47 Push Pull Framework

40:59 Exercise 1 Dumbbell Row

42:38 Row Form Cues

43:27 Pushup Alternatives

47:01 Face Pull Posture Fix

49:34 Pulldown vs Pullup

52:14 Overhead Press Setup

56:18 Triceps Work Options

01:00:32 Pallof Press Anti Twist

01:03:16 Band Pull Aparts

01:04:39 Dead Bug Coordination

01:07:20 Farmers Carry Posture

01:09:17 Build Your Routine

01:11:16 Rotator Cuff Bonus

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Transcript

Angie 0:00

So many runners think that running is a lower body sport, but if you think about it, running is a full body activity and your upper body matters just as much as your legs during running. Well, maybe not just as much, but it, it sure does make a big difference. So today we're talking all about upper body training for runners. We're gonna be talking about why it's so important, how often you should be training it, and I'm also gonna be giving you my 10 favorite exercises to train your upper body as a runner. So stay tuned. What's up, runners? Welcome back to the show. Today we're talking all about upper body training for runners. Kev, are you excited for this one?

Kevin 0:58

Super excited. You know me and the upper body lifting. I'm just, a d- Beachbody- Jacked is what we've been doing with

Angie 1:04

all summer. Beachbody jacked, right?

Kevin 1:06

Yes.

Speaker 1:07

All right. So do you think that a lot of people have questions about this?

Speaker 2 1:12

Um, okay, so here's, here's my first thought. When you said we're gonna do a thing on upper body- Mm-hmm my first memory of upper body lifting-

Speaker 1:19

Yeah

Speaker 2 1:20

outside of, like, PE class, where we had to do pushups in, like- Mm-hmm grade school, um, was when I was in high school, there was, what I was told was a study. I don't even know if it was. I think it was just a rumor that spread through high school cross country teams, that they had done a study on elite, uh, African marathoners-

Speaker 1:39

Mm-hmm

Speaker 2 1:39

and found none of them could complete up to five pushups.

Speaker 1:43

None

Speaker 2 1:43

of them

Speaker 1:43

could.

Speaker 2 1:44

And so then- Yeah. And so that meant that, like, you didn't really need to train your upper body- Mm-hmm because these were the best in the world. Now, before we, we hit record and we started doing this, I searched through the corners of the magic interweb, and- I found I found nothing.

Speaker 1:59

Really?

Speaker 2 2:00

And so then I was like, "Well, maybe, maybe they were talking about pull-ups," so then I s- tried to find that. Nothing.

Speaker 2:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:05

So I think this may have just been a rumor that spread through high school cross country teams because none of us wanted to lift.

Speaker 2:12

So it's, it's an urban legend?

Speaker 2 2:15

I think it's a cross country legend. It's an urban legend. I think that's possibly what we've, what we've got here. Well-

Speaker 2:21

That's been passed down for generations to make the runners understand that you don't need to do upper body work.

Speaker 2 2:26

Yeah, I think it was- a solid justification.

Speaker 2:29

I like it. Well, the truth is, upper body work is very important, and it... Maybe when you look at elite Kenyans or elite marathoners, like, they do tend to look smaller in their upper body compared to sprinters, for sure, right? And compared to triathletes and other, other kinds of athletes. And so maybe you think, "Oh, well, it's not as important." And there's probably also people out there that believe that a strong upper body might even slow you down, because it's more muscle and more mass that's added on that you then just have to carry along with you.

Speaker 2 3:06

In, I mean, based off of the laws of physics, there- Mm-hmm there is a point, 'cause there's, like, there's running bros now that are gym bros that are now running.

Speaker 3:15

Yeah. And

Speaker 2 3:16

it's like, "Look how fast I am while still being able to bench this, while still being able to deadlift this," and, and their upper body's huge, and they're still running Good times. I think that there is a, uh, there's probably an upper limit if you're trying to see literally how fast you could run a marathon- Mm-hmm that there's a point where you could be too strong simply because you're carrying too much mass. But there's also very clearly a point where you're too weak- Mm-hmm where you have no upper body strength. I mean, we've got very good stuff inside of our podcast today about why you need some level of strength. That you don't need to go out there and get your, your shoulders as huge as possible. You know, you're not running along like, "I can't put my arms down." Like, that's not what we're talking here. But you have to have some strength. It's, it's helpful, and not just so that you look better in the mirror. Although, that is, that can be a motivating factor.

Speaker 4:10

I mean, I think that's a motivating factor, for sure, because that's definitely one of my motivating factors. I love to have defined muscles and things in my upper body. I think that it looks much better. I much prefer having shoulders that look good when I'm running in my tank tops.

Speaker 2 4:25

You prefer having shoulders as opposed to not having shoulders?

Speaker 4:28

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 4:29

Yeah,

Speaker 4:30

I know. Like, visible, visible shoulder muscles.

Speaker 2 4:32

Right. But this is the point is it's nice to have shoulders. It's also, it's nice to have a neck. Like, we don't have to lift to the point that we don't have a neck anymore.

Speaker 4:39

Well, I think that going to back to what you said, I think there probably is that tipping point where you, if you get too big, it could possibly have, start having a negative effect on your running economy. But most people are never gonna get to that point, because most people just don't lift enough to ever get to that point.

Speaker 2 4:56

I would say, like you put most to it, I think that it, the number of people that would, that are listening to our podcast, one- Yeah and lifting that much, there might be two people. In which case, hi, welcome. How you guys doing? Um, but I just, there's, there's, that group of the population is very, very small.

Speaker 5:15

Mm-hmm. I agree. So let's first talk to most people that are listening to the podcast and talk about why upper body training is so important for a runner. Like, why would we even think about this? Because a lot of people think, "I just need to train my legs," and there's... It's interesting because there's a couple different, um, groups of people- There's some people that I hear about that are runners that they tell me they only train their upper body because running gives them whatever they need for their legs. And so- Yes whenever they, whenever they lift, they only do upper body. They never lift legs because they just get whatever they need for their legs with running. There was actually an article that I read a week or two ago about a lady who, um, is set- just set the masters PR, I think, for the marathon. I forget her name. Um, but she was, she's in her 70s or maybe even her 80s. She might even be, like, in, like, early 80s. Um, and that's, like, one of the things that she does. She only lifts upper body. And, like, for some people, like, maybe if you're a freak of nature, then that could work for you, but today we're talking mostly about as many people as possible. We're gonna generalize to most people. Um, and then so going back to what I was saying before, one camp says, "I only lift arms. I never lift legs because then running does my legs." And then there's, uh, the other group of people that doesn't lift arms, that only does injury prevention stuff, and wants to lift for their legs so that their legs are stronger for running. But we're here to try to find the middle ground because you need to be lifting for your upper body in order to improve your running. Like, yes, it's nice to have well-defined shoulders and look good in your tank tops, um, and it's also actually important for your running efficiency and economy to train your upper body as well.

Speaker 2 6:57

And see, that's when you... That, those are the fancy words that pull me in. Mm-hmm. I don't know how much of our, our listening audience it pulls in, but as soon as you start talking running economy- Mm and you're like, "Lifting on your upper body will improve your running economy," you perk my ears up 'cause if you're running further or you just wanna run the same distance but a little bit faster- Mm-hmm what you are looking to improve is running economy, and you can improve it by going out and running. But if you're telling me that I can also improve it by spending a little bit of time on lifting upper body, maybe that's a b- that's a good choice.

Speaker 7:32

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 7:33

Running economy almost always where, where you're aiming for.

Speaker 7:36

Okay. So why does training your upper body improve running economy, or how does it improve running economy? The simple answer is arm swing. So when you run, you swing your arms back and forth. You swing your legs back and forth, and you swing your arms back and forth, and your arms and your legs swing- in what's called a reciprocal pattern. So that means that your, when your right leg goes forward, your left arm goes forward to counterbalance it. When your left leg goes forward, your right arm goes forward in order to coun- counterbalance it. This is called counter-rotation of the body. So when your lower body rotates one way to swing your leg forward, the upper body swings the oppos- or rotates the opposite way to balance, to keep the body in balance. And so when you have a strong and mobile upper body, that will help to produce an active and efficient arm swing rather than just, like, a passive or compensatory one, which is what we definitely don't want. Because we don't want... Lot, a lot of times- What I, we often see is that people have too much arm swing and they're rotating too much in their upper body. That can also put, um, that can decrease the efficiency of the hip rotation in the lower body and lead to compensation patterns in the hips and the knees.

Speaker 2 8:57

Oh, so that's, that's the compensatory? That's if your arms- Mm-hmm are swinging so much that it's- Yeah preventing your, your torso from turning correctly, which is then preventing your... Like, it's screwing up your stride because you're-

Speaker 9:07

It screw- it screws up your stride, exactly. So basically because of the swings and the, and the counter-rotation, right? 'Cause you're swinging your leg forward and you're swinging your opposite arm forward at the same time. That creates a rotation and a counter-rotation in your trunk, so your upper torso and your hips. So there was a study in 2025. It's not, like, a, a high-quality study yet. It's just a modeling study, but it was produced, and it showed that running with your arms crossed and fixed to the chest. So a lot of women especially, men do this too, but I see it, I tend to see it more in women. They have their arms up higher. It's clo- they're closer to their chest, and they cross over. So if you're watching us on YouTube right now, you can see the video. Um, their arms cross over in front of their body instead of just staying n- next to their side. Does that make sense if you're, if you're hearing it?

Speaker 2 9:55

Yeah, I'm with you.

Speaker 9:56

O- okay. Um, so when they, uh, they found that when runners did it that way, when they ran with their arms crossed and fixed to the chest, in- that increased energy consumption by about 5% compared to just active arm swing. So oth- there was other research that showed there was, that even up to 8% of running economy was compromised when you ran with a, a poor arm swing.

Speaker 2 10:22

Yeah, they've, they've done numerous studies on this one. I think my favorite, the, the arms crossed across your chest and then locked in like you're in a straitjacket is a good one. Mm-hmm. Um, my favorite is there was one where they had their arms strapped down at the, at their sides- Mm-hmm so they, they w- they looked like penguins-

Speaker 10:39

Yeah who

Speaker 2 10:40

were trying to run. Um, and the weirdest thing, though, if you try and run without allowing your arms to move, suddenly you start driving your shoulders. Mm. Like, if you try and run with your arms down by your sides, you try and get something out of it, and so then you've got all this, like, excess shoulder movement just to try to balance out, out your legs.

Speaker 11:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2 11:01

You need your arms. They're super, super helpful. Mm-hmm. And, um, when you start throwing things like 5% improvement in energy economy, in running economy, then you're looking at super shoes.

Speaker 11:12

Yeah.

Speaker 2 11:13

And you know me, I don't like to spend money on things. So if I can go do what- you've got it, the, the 10 exercises I need to do, and not drop $350 on a pair of super shoes that are only gonna last me a month- Mm-hmm like, this seems like a pretty valid trade-off.

Speaker 11:28

Yeah, but the super shoes only typically are showing 2 to 4% of an improvement in running economy, so this could possibly be even more than that.

Speaker 2 11:36

Yeah, it depends on the

Speaker 11:38

shoe. Of course it does. Some super shoes are better than others. Well, a- and also, like, you know, if you look at these studies, like, no one's actually going to run with their arms fixed to their chest, like crossed over and fixed to their chest. No one's running that way. But it's just kind of starting to see is there a difference between, you know, kind of a passive arm swing and an active arm swing. Um, and, and that changes a little bit when you talk about the speed of your running also, right? Because when we teach arm swing, and we're actually, we're not really planning on, I wasn't planning on talking too much about arm swing, um, in detail in this episode. But as a distance runner, as an endurance runner, arm swing does tend to be a little bit more passive versus when you're sprinting. When you're sprinting, you definitely want drive and arm swing because that's helping to propel you forward. But when you're out on, like, an easy run, you're not really driving your arms forward. It, it does tend to be a more passive activity. But the direction that your arms are going, whether or not they're swinging front to back or if they're swinging across your chest, does have, uh, an effect on the running economy and also the biomechanics and al- like, what's happening in the lower body. Because your lower body is always trying to balance out your upper body, and vice versa. Upper body's balancing lower body. They work in tandem with each other. And so when your shoulders, your lats, your triceps, when they are working together and they're working properly, your arms can just drive you forward versus, you know, if they're crossing over, then we're, you're gonna get, be getting more rotation in the hips as well. And we're gonna be talking about, like, ki- kind of those patterns, um, a little bit later in the episode, too.

Speaker 2 13:11

Yeah, it all, it all connects. I've, I've seen plenty of runners who have, like, a weird flick with their foot as they run- Mm-hmm and you fix their arm and the flick just naturally goes away.

Speaker 13:19

Right.

Speaker 2 13:19

Because they, they have to balance each other. Yeah. But that leads pretty nicely to the next idea, where we're talking about how posture is connected under this thing.

Speaker 13:27

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 13:28

Because when you screw up your running posture, the same as messing up running arms, if you start messing up your posture, which happens a lot- Mm-hmm as you get farther. Like, the back third of your race- Yeah or particularly long runs, even if it's a long easy run- Mm-hmm your posture just starts falling apart. And I, I think the world that we live in right now really encourages, um, for lack of a better term, crappy posture.

Speaker 13:52

Yeah, I ag-

Speaker 2 13:53

I think is the

Speaker 13:53

word I agree, and I think that that carries over into our running, because we have to look at what does our daily life look like. If you are sedentary most of the time, if you're hunched over a desk, hunched over a computer. Driving tends to pull us forward, like so many. If you just think about your day, from the time you wake up- To the time you go to bed, how often are you f- forward flexed, right? How often are you more hunched over? You wake up and you go to, to the sink to wash your face and brush your teeth. That's a forward flexed motion. You go to the kitchen to make your breakfast, to make your coffee tends to be more forward flexed versus extended and really pulling those shoulders back. If you're sitting at a desk, if you're driving, if you're cooking dinner, like all of these things, if you're sitting at dinner, we tend to live in a more forward flexed position in our lives. And so we then have postural changes that are, are due to that constant forward flex positioning that we are going through in our life, and that can significantly compromise your running mechanics. So rounded shoulders, that forward head position, thoracic stiffness, so your thoracic spine is your, your mid-back, your mid-trunk. Those things can all affect your arm swing efficiency and your breathing mechanics. And so that's goes back to what you were saying, uh, with running posture, especially as you get fatigued because you're trying to stand up straight, you're trying to keep everything upright And as you get fatigued, we tend to go more into that rounded shoulder posture, that forward flexed type of posture, forward head. That affects your breathing, and if you can't get enough oxygen in, that's going to also affect your endurance, your speed, et cetera. And then we can also get into musculoskeletal types of injuries as well, because you're putting more strain on the thoracic spine, the lumbar spine, your muscles are working harder, and all of that is affecting your running efficiency.

Speaker 2 15:44

Yeah, I mean, my first thought as soon as you start caving in on posture- Mm-hmm is that you're much more likely to get a side stitch-

Speaker 15:49

Yeah

Speaker 2 15:49

because you can't take a deep breath.

Speaker 15:51

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 15:51

But you can't, like, if, if you're listening and y- wherever you are it's safe to do it, if you excessively curl your shoulders forward in front of you- Mm-hmm and then ti- try and take a deep breath, it's naturally gonna open your shoulders back up, because you can't take a giant, deep breath with your shoulders all caved in. And if you can't breathe deeply, you're, you're just more likely to get a side stitch because you can't breathe fully, and then you can't take a nice, full stride either.

Speaker 16:15

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 16:15

Um, so there's, there's a lot that, that goes in, um-

Speaker 16:18

Right, and so strength training in general, w- but whether it's upper body or lower body, strength training does help to improve running economy, especially as you fatigue, especially if you're doing high-intensity types of exercises. So the faster you run, the more important this is. And that doesn't mean that, like, those of you that are running, you know, 12-minute miles, 13-minute miles, it doesn't matter. It still matters for everybody, because if you can get stronger in your upper body, you can improve your running economy, which probably means you can go a little bit faster. So if you want to get faster, training your upper body might be one of those hidden things that you haven't really tapped into yet as well. But strength training in general is going to help improve all of those things, and that very much con- uh, includes the upper body muscles that support posture and arm mechanics. Because as you fatigue and you start to round out, like Kevin was just saying, and like if you, um, if your shoulders come forward, it's going to be much harder for you to get that deep breath. And so it is gonna be important for you to have those muscles in the back, the posterior chain, that are supporting your body and allowing you to stay more upright and avoid that forward flexed position as you go.

Speaker 2 17:29

All right, so everybody who listens and has been longtime listeners, we all know that you prefer to do a c- do calf raises as you brush your teeth.

Speaker 17:36

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 17:36

Um, but in general, brushing your teeth, 'cause it's at a sink, is a forward-leaning thing. So is it possible that while we're doing our calf raises that we should also be doing back bends as we brush our teeth? Um- Would that be beneficial for our back?

Speaker 17:49

I mean, as long as you don't dribble, uh, toothpaste down your chin like I tend to do. I always have to forward flex so I don't just drip all over myself.

Speaker 2 17:57

But, like, this is, this is the actual position that we need is- Yeah things that, like, feel like we're almost leaning backwards.

Speaker 18:02

Extension. Yeah, and that's why, you know, some of the things that we're gonna be talking about today, the exercises that we're gonna be focusing on really help to pr- uh, promote extension, to, to, to promote thoracic extension and strengthening the muscles in that position to kind of hold you there as well. But we have a couple more reasons why it's super, um, important for you to work on your upper body that we've started to touch on a little bit before. The third one is reducing rotational stress on the spine in the SI joint. So like I mentioned before, when you run, you- your body is rotating. Opposite arm, opposite leg go forward, and then you rotate the other way. So arm- when arm swing and trunk rotation are efficient, the pelvis and the lumbar spine, your lower back, are protected from absorbing those compens- compensatory forces. And so if you have weakness in the, uh, in thoracic rotation, if you tend to be more forward flexed, if your arm is, are swinging all over the place, more forces can go through your, your lower back. Um, and that can be connected to back pain, to SI joint issues, and tho- that's one of the reasons that these are more co- like tend to be common in runners, which unfortunately you just experienced first hand. I

Speaker 2 19:15

did. So then this is like weakness in the upper body that shows up as pain in your lower back.

Speaker 19:20

Right. And it like- It's weakness and coordination issues as well, right? Well- Because there's a coordination issue with the arm swing and where the arms are going.

Speaker 2 19:28

Yes. And, and we've found, I mean, you've known for years that I don't exactly have the greatest of coordination. So, um, a lot of being able to move appropriately, but part of that moving appropriately is getting into upper body strength training. That's, that's the w- the mobility comes from, but that's also just moving your body in various planes- Mm-hmm in smooth, appropriate, functional patterns.

Speaker 19:50

And controlled.

Speaker 2 19:52

And controlled. Yeah. Like you can move in all sorts of different dimensions, and you look smooth and graceful as you do it. I can also move, sort of. But no one is watching me do any of these exercises and thinking, "Yes, smooth and graceful." Mm-hmm. But I'm working on it, and I think that it's that smooth, graceful ability to move in various directions that allows rotation from places that are supposed to rotate- Right and not rotating from places that are not supposed to rotate. This is all where the a- the appropriate upper body strengthening comes in, is muscles doing what they're supposed to do and not covering for muscles that can't keep up their own, that can't pull their own weight. Mm. Literally, that are not pulling their own weight.

Speaker 20:35

Right, because when that counterbalance fails, like if you are, if you have excessive arm swing in the upper body, you're getting more s- uh, rotation in the hips is what should be happening. The hip and pelvis should also be trying to counterbalance that. But if you don't have proper mobility in that area, then that's just going through your, your lumbar spine, and that's adding a torsional rotational stress that shouldn't be happening there, and that's why a lot of people have lower back pain. That and just their m- their muscles fatigue, you know? That's the other big thing of why people often complain about soreness or stiffness in their lower back when they run or after they run or after they, especially on the long runs, is those muscles are just fatiguing, and so they're not supporting the body as well either.

Speaker 2 21:18

I mean, you pointed out, like, uh, our lifestyle is not designed- Mm to really ever go through back extension.

Speaker 21:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2 21:25

Like, so many activities are forward-leaning activities. Mm-hmm. So if you wanna highlight this, like you have to go out of your way. When we start talking about the exercises, none of those are like, "Oh, yeah, those are things that I, are related to what I do in normal day." They're just, they're not. Mm-hmm. You have to go put specific effort forth to make sure- Yeah that you're doing this.

Speaker 21:44

Well, it's the same thing of, like, when you have a baby. Remember when we had, when you had a baby, you had to give them tummy time in order to help build the strength in their thoracic extens- ex- extensor muscles. Like, and you had to be very, um, deliberate with that. You had to make sure they got a certain amount of tummy time per day so that they were, those muscles would develop. And then, you know, as adults, we just don't do tummy time enough.

Speaker 2 22:09

Yes. So we need, that, that's, that's the push. Has- I mean- #moretummytime

Speaker 22:15

I, it's not wrong though. Like, if we spent more time on our stomachs, not, not sleeping on your stomachs, because that has a d- that has a whole different thing that we're, we're not talking about today. But spending time lying on your stomach is a very good idea, because your body, like, it, we just don't do it enough.

Speaker 2 22:32

So instead of standing desks, you're promoting that

Speaker 22:36

we- Tummy time desks

Speaker 2 22:36

tummy time.

Speaker 22:37

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 22:38

Like, if we could design a tummy time desk.

Speaker 22:40

It's called a laptop on the floor.

Speaker 2 22:44

That doesn't work for- No for normal office, like, there are offices that will redesign. They have the adjustable desks, and then people can stand up at work.

Speaker 22:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2 22:51

You've got to come up with some way that people can literally be laying on their stomach while in an office environment.

Speaker 22:58

Mm-hmm. That's our, that's our road to millions right there, Kev.

Speaker 2 23:01

That's what I'm saying. Yeah. No one steal that. It's a good thing we didn't put that on the podcast.

Speaker 23:06

No, but the problem with that is th- what's happening at the neck. Like, if you were to actually work with your laptop on the ground and extend your neck all day long, like, that would be, uh, there, a lot of people would have neck pain from that.

Speaker 2 23:19

Well, you have to, you have to go through different motions. It's

Speaker 23:22

not that you would- You'd have to build it up. Build up the tolerance Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:24

But it's not that, that you would be like that all day long. Right. You would go from that, and then you could stand, and then you could sit. Mm-hmm. You just, you have to go through various motions. In, in office work, we just hang out in one position all day long.

Speaker 23:35

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:36

Little kids are in all sorts of positions. Babies won't naturally go into tummy time, but, like, toddlers are in every position. That's why you don't hear toddlers complain about their lower back aching.

Speaker 23:47

Mm-hmm. N- I know. Thank goodness for that. I, I dread the day that that's gonna start happening, 'cause like, it, it keeps happening younger and younger. Like, kids are having back pain. Like, teenagers and kids are starting to have back pain, and for a long time they tried to blame it on the backpacks, and I'm, I, I know that that didn't help anything, but a big piece of this is just how sedentary our kids have gotten during the day too, because school used to be a lot more active, and they're getting rid of PE, and they're getting rid of, like, all these things, and they're just keeping kids in chairs. And so these sedentary lifestyles and the postural changes that we're seeing e- is starting as young as elementary school.

Speaker 2 24:26

Yes, and then you just throw a screen in front of them.

Speaker 24:29

Yeah, not a good thing. And then the, the fourth thing, which again, we've already touched on, um, but the fourth reason that upper body training is so important for runners is to support breathing efficiency. So we already mentioned that when we a- are rounded, when our shoulders are rounded, when we're hunched forward- That tends to shut down the lungs and make it harder for you to take a deep breath. Weak or tight chest and shoulder muscles also res- restrict your ribcage from expanding. So yes, we have this forward posture, but we oftentimes, Kevin, like what you just said, you said, "Okay, now put your shoulders back and take a deep breath. You can take a much deeper breath," which is true. But there's a lot of people that have spent so much time in this rounded shoulders position that they actually have mobility restrictions, like their chest wall is restricted, their shoulders are restricted. So they can't even actually open up their chest because they're too tight in their chest musculature. And so when you're too tight there, that's going to prevent your ribcage from expanding fully, and it's also going to, um, affect your diaphragm function. And your diaphragm is your main breathing muscles. Your, your muscle, one singular diaphragm. It's like the domed muscle underneath your lungs. And so when your ribcage is contracted and can't expand fully, then neither can your diaphragm. And when your diaphragm can't expand, then your lungs can't expand fully, and so then you're not getting as much oxygen down. And then it's really important for your lung health that you take really deep breaths so that you can get air into all the different pockets of your lungs, because most people don't actually use their full lungs. Most people breathe just through the top portion of the, their lungs and don't even utilize the full lung, which is, it has its own health consequences down the road. That's one thing as runners that we definitely have an, a leg up when it comes to us versus the general population, is because of running, we tend to use more of our lungs than just sedentary people in the general population.

Speaker 2 26:30

Yeah, that's true. And, and if, even as a runner, if you're shallow breathing, then- Mm-hmm lay on your back from time to time and take some really deep breaths- Mm-hmm and see if you can get the chest to actually rise and fall. Like, it- Yeah it will improve your running, and that's not even strength training. That's just, I'm just telling you to lay on your back and take some deep breaths.

Speaker 26:46

Yeah. Yeah, laying on your back and taking deep breaths is a really good idea. And then another thing, which I didn't not include in the exercises for runners, 'cause this is kind of more of a mobility type of activity versus like a strength training activity. One exercise that I like is to have people lie on a foam roller in parallel with their spine, like running up and down their spine. So a lot of people when they lie on a foam roller, they, the foam roller is perpendicular to their body, right? It's going long ways across their back.

Speaker 2 27:16

Yeah, their body and the foam roller make a T.

Speaker 27:17

Yeah. But what I like to have people do is have the, them lie with their spine right on along the foam roller so that the spine and the foam roller are both going in the same direction, and just lying there and opening up the chest, putting your hands out to the side so that it, you're, you get a really good stretch in the front of your chest, the front of your shoulder, and just taking deep breaths and spending a couple minutes in that position taking deep breaths. That's really good for the spine. It's good for thoracic extension, to open up the chest, open up the shoulders, and then also to help you take deeper breaths and actually get into the diaphragm.

Speaker 2 27:52

And would you say if somebody is so tight through their upper chest-

Speaker 27:55

Mm-hmm

Speaker 2 27:56

that before you even get... Like, if that's painful, that they should just start laying on their back and trying to deep breathe?

Speaker 28:00

Yes.

Speaker 2 28:00

Like, is that the prelim step?

Speaker 28:02

Laying on your back with your, uh, hands by your side, and then you can bring the arms out to the side until your arms are more of like in a, in a V position, in a T position. So changing the position, uh, of your hands while you're lying on your back is also going to change the position of your shoulder, which is then going to have an effect on your ribcage and diaphragm as well.

Speaker 2 28:21

And then eventually lay on a foam roller.

Speaker 28:22

And then eventually lay on a foam roller.

Speaker 2 28:24

It is comfortable. Mm-hmm. And it really, it, it almost requires deep breathing.

Speaker 28:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. So how often and how much should we be strength training? So it's-

Speaker 2 28:35

This is excellent. Please, how much? Because-

Speaker 28:37

How much?

Speaker 2 28:37

you, you know me. Yeah. Can I do it two days a week?

Speaker 28:40

Yes, you can do it on two days a week. So two days per week would be the recommended. If you wanna add a third day in, 'cause it just, again, it always depends on your schedule. If you can get, if you have enough time to devote to doing strength exercises twice per week, uh, it tends to be that those exercise sessions are gonna be a little bit longer because you're gonna have to do upper body and lower body in the same session. So if you have, you know, it, it's always gonna be what, what fits best, 'cause are you... Is it better for you to fit in two longer strength sessions or three shorter strength sessions into your week, right?

Speaker 2 29:13

Okay, that's, that's valid. I can- Okay I see the point of that. Like-

Speaker 29:16

Okay

Speaker 2 29:16

if, if I'm working with 45 minutes m- and, and I can, I need a third one rather than- Mm-hmm two hour-long sessions?

Speaker 29:23

Right, exactly. Yeah. So it just kind of, that's like a real-life thing. So it's, it's less about exactly how many times per week, but how much, and are you hitting the right muscles enough during the week? Mm-hmm. Because the goal for us r- as runners is not bodybuilding, right? That's not what we're talking about here. If you're in a bodybuilding competition, you're also not trying to optimize your running. You have to choose which one you're optimizing. And so if the goal here is function and not mass, we're not trying to put on bulk as runners, we're just trying to have better upper body function, better running economy, and some cute shoulders in our tank tops, right? Then yes, we're looking at- All about

Speaker 2 30:00

the cute shoulders

Speaker 30:01

I know, right? We're looking at two to three sessions per week as l- as long as we're focusing on the right thing. Um, as far as volume goes, you wanna be doing Probably two to three sets, I would say even more of, um, depending on which muscles that we're working. So when you look at what the stimulus that's required to build muscle, that's not exactly what we're talking about here. Because there is a certain stimulus that's required for you to build muscle. And, and s- depending on the study that you look at, we're looking at 10 sets working th- that same muscle group 10 sets throughout the week, okay? Not just, uh, in one session, but throughout the week. So a, a good example for this would be your glutes, right? If you wanna... If you're a runner, it's important for you to work your glutes. It's important for you to hit 10 sets of glute exercises throughout the week. But you're gonna work your glutes through squats, you're gonna work your glutes through step-ups, through deadlifts. Like, there's, it's not that you have to do 10 sets of squats during the week, because you hit that muscle group with multiple different types of exercises. Does that ma- make sense?

Speaker 2 31:04

That, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. When you said 10 sets, I just assumed if I'm squatting- I'm s- I'm doing 10 sets of squats. No. How many am I putting into a set also?

Speaker 31:12

Well, that's the thing, right? So, and that's what we're talking about here, is it's important that you're taking your muscles close to fatigue. That's how you build strength. You build strength, you build muscle by taking the muscle close to fatigue. So I could sit here and tell you you should do three sets of 10 reps of this exercise, but that's not an accurate statement. Because some people, and it also depends on the load. Y- like, if you're gonna lift heavier, it's gonna take you less repetitions to get to fatigue versus someone that has lighter weights, it's gonna take more repetitions to get to fatigue. But ultimately, the goal is to get to fatigue, especially when we're doing postural type of endurance work. Because we're trying to strengthen our upper back muscles, our spinal stabilizing muscles, our shoulders. Like, a, a lot of this is for postural stability while running, and so the goal is not being able to lift as heavy as possible with those muscles. The goal is to have those muscles turn on and stay on to help stabilize the body, the upper body, the spine, et cetera, as you're running for an hour or two hours, however long you're out there.

Speaker 2 32:16

Right, but then that also gets, and this goes back to, like, lifting in the '90s, where runners were, like, low weights and super high reps.

Speaker 32:25

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 32:26

What- I, I, I heard a podcast about this, I don't know, probably, like, a year ago, that they, they pointed out how this was such a silly idea-

Speaker 32:34

Yeah

Speaker 2 32:34

of, that they would have runners that were doing, like, 50 reps in a set. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 32:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2 32:40

And they're like, "Okay, that's, that's a lot," but if you translate that into running, 50 steps does not get you very far.

Speaker 32:48

Exactly.

Speaker 2 32:48

So if you're like, "Oh, you know, you have to do at least 50 because you're building endurance," um, you still did that in, like, a minute and a half. So when you go out for an hour-long run, your minute-and-a-half lifting did not build comparable endurance. Exactly. So you're still looking to take your body to fatigue. Mm-hmm. If you add more weight onto it, you can get to the fatigue. Other- to me, lifting super low weights with ridiculously high reps just kind of seems like a time-waster.

Speaker 33:15

Exactly, and, and that's really the big thing here. So th- how do you figure out what to do ba- is based on, number one, can you maintain proper form? Because a lot of times when people try to increase the weights on things, they tend to compensate with other muscles, and they don't isolate the muscles that they're trying to work as well. So this happened to me the other day. I was doing tricep work, and so I was doing an overhead tricep press. So I grabbed a 35-pound dumbbell to do the, the trice- overhead tricep press, and as soon as I did that first one, I could feel my shoulder kicking in and compensating. So I was like, "Okay, that's not what I want to happen. I'm trying to isolate my triceps here." Obviously, my shoulders, my back muscles, it's a standing tricep press, so all of them are turning on and working while I'm doing this tricep press. But I want to still make sure that I'm doing the exercise properly. So I dropped the weight down. I grabbed the 30-pound dumbbell instead, then I did it, and I really just, I slowed it down so that- My muscles had to work harder. So when you do an exercise more slowly, your muscle has to work harder, more muscle fibers get recruited. And so I, I'd used a lower weight, but I performed each repetition more slowly, and I was still fatiguing by, like, 10 to 12 reps, and my shoulders were staying down and I was staying in better form. And so that's really the key, is, like, finding the weight that you- feels challenging so that when you get to, you know, eight to 12 reps, it feels like, okay, like, it's gonna be challenging or my form is gonna start to break down. Because once your form starts to break down, then, then you're done.

Speaker 2 34:49

Yeah. I mean, I, I literally was standing 10 feet away from you as you did this. Um, but it's, it's possible at this point that you were getting a better tricep work at 30 pounds- Mm-hmm than you were at 35. Because once you- Exactly once you start using other muscles to compensate-

Speaker 35:05

Right

Speaker 2 35:05

you're like, "Look how many other muscles I can use," and you're like, you're barely even tapping into your tricep at that point. Like, your tricep was still doing something- Mm-hmm but it was performing such little of the activity. If you put it to 30, now you can focus, you can really f- like, concentrate on, "I want my tricep to be pulling this weight up and over my head."

Speaker 35:25

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 35:26

And i- then, then the muscle that you want is doing something. That's why I think as we go through the exercises that you've got here, it's important that people understand not just it... I like to know what the point of it is, and some of them I can just, as I do the thing, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, it makes sense that I would do this. This would help me with my running." Mm-hmm. But I love your cuing because it's like, "You should be feeling this here." "Well, I'm not feeling it there." "Oh, well then you're doing something completely wrong because you're using muscles that you're not supposed to be using for this."

Speaker 35:54

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So instead of thinking about, um, how many sets and how many reps exactly that you need to do, the goal is to really think about overall load. You wanna choose a moderate load that is going to challenge you in those final two to three reps without compromising form. So that's really how you choose. And I could tell you, "Oh, you should lift heavier," this and that. Everybody's got different equipment, right? You can get a heck of a good upper body workout using resistance bands as long as you are maintaining good form and getting your body to the point where those last couple of reps are, are challenging, are, are tough to maintain that good form. And, and to your point also, yeah, you could do lighter weights and then you'd have to do 50 reps. Like, that just sounds super time-consuming. And the other thing that you wanna keep in mind- is that with heavier loads, we are also helping not only to help build muscle, but we are increasing the durability and the resilience of our ligaments, our tendons, our t- our fascia, our tissues. Like, so it's, it's not just the muscles that we're focusing on. Everything also, like all of our supporting muscular, all the supporting, um, tissues, soft tissues, are also getting a benefit as we increase the load on the muscles.

Speaker 2 37:10

As we start increasing soft muscle, uh-

Speaker 37:13

Soft tissue

Speaker 2 37:14

soft tissue, do, do we ever get to actual, like, increasing bone density off of any of this, or is that- Yes. Yes?

Speaker 37:21

Yes,

Speaker 2 37:21

yes. Okay.

Speaker 37:21

Yeah, the heavier the load, the m- the more bone density improvements you see as well, because strength training is one of the most, um, important and effective ways that we can im- improve our bone density. So yes. Okay. Because the- Mm-hmm 'cause you're pulling, essentially when you... Okay, so a muscle attaches to the bone with a tendon, right? So the tendon is the attachment that, that, uh, between the muscle belly and the, the bone itself. And so-

Speaker 2 37:47

You can remember that because bone starts with B and tendon starts with T No, it's not helpful at all. I've never been able to remember which one's which. Well, ligaments- I know there are tendons and ligaments, and

Speaker 37:59

I can

Speaker 2 37:59

never remember

Speaker 37:59

ligaments con- so ligaments connect bone to bone, and tendons connect muscle to bone.

Speaker 2 38:04

Yeah, I know. I just can never remember.

Speaker 38:06

Okay. Mm-hmm. So when we are pulling, like when you have a heavier weight, then the pull on the muscle is greater Right? 'Cause the muscle's working harder, so the tendon is pulling harder on the bone. Does that make sense? Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 38:20

Yep.

Speaker 38:21

Okay. So that's wh- that's how it helps to improves. You, so you're, there's a whole bone remodeling process that you are helping to promote because it's an increased force on the bone.

Speaker 2 38:32

Yeah, no, sign me up for bone remodeling process.

Speaker 38:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2 38:34

Especially anything, anything along my spine a- and, like, down into my pelvis. To me, it, anything that I can do that strengthens all the bones along spine and pelvis area- Yeah suggests that I'm gonna be able to run for, for decades longer.

Speaker 38:50

Exactly. And so upper body training is not only just helping your shoulder joints, but it's also helping your thoracic spine, like you just mentioned, your shoulders, your wrists, like your, your grip strength, um, and your wrist strength, especially as women. That's very important for us as well wh- when it comes to bone density because if you do fall, like, and we all know as runners, like, I mean, I've fallen before as a runner. I- most runners I think can experience falls. It's kind of one of the risks that we take when we're out there on the roads. You don't, like, your first in- in- inclination is to put your hands out, right? And so you, you have to have strong wrists to help protect you, God forbid, you do take a little tumble, because that's one of the first things that's your first line of defense.

Speaker 2 39:35

Yeah, yeah. You're gonna stop yourself. You're gonna scuff up your hands- Mm-hmm but it's way better to do that and not smash your face into the ground. Yeah. But you go, you go and, and brace yourself. If you're brittle over there, suddenly you have a broken wrist, a broken forearm.

Speaker 39:49

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 39:49

So yeah, upper body, upper body strength. Okay, all right, you're starting to sell me on it.

Speaker 39:54

All right. I'm star- Okay, so do you have any other questions before we get into some of my favorite exercises?

Speaker 2 40:00

No, this is where I really am bringing the questions. All right. I am excited for your list, 'cause it's, it's quite the list.

Speaker 40:05

It's quite the list. So the way that I kind of categorize really all exercises in my head, but especially upper body exercises, are push exercises versus pull exercises. Okay, so is it a pulling type of motion or is a pushing type of motion? So that's how I like to kind of categorize them in, in our heads, in my head, and I wanna have both incorporated in all of my full body exercise programs. And so one of the ways that I, when I program a workout, I make sure that I include a squat pattern that's giving us vertical force. I include a hinge pattern that's giving us, um, forward and backward force, uh, in our lower body. I always include a push exercise with the upper body and a pull exercise with the upper body, and then we put in some rotational exercises and core and accessory types of things, injury prevention of, of things. But pushes, push exercises and pull exercises are the two main upper body categories that I always program into all of my strength circuits.

Speaker 2 41:05

Yeah, you went push, pull, hinge, squat, twist

Speaker 41:08

All sorts of fun stuff

Speaker 2 41:09

I, suddenly you started adding a lot of things to the list, and as soon as the lifting list starts getting long, you get me a little nervous. I know.

Speaker 41:16

So

Speaker 2 41:16

let's, let's start going through and seeing- All right seeing what I need to lift.

Speaker 41:19

All right, so one of the, my favorite pull exercises for upper body is the bent over row or the dumbbell row. Okay, now you can r- do rows in lots of different ways, but one of the most important ways, like, so if you think about running, right? Your elbows are going back and forward, back and forward. And if you think about a row, what's happening? We're pulling back, pulling that elbow back, and then releasing it forward, right? So your lats and your mid-back muscles are some of your primary drivers for arm swings, and so, uh, there are, your lats are also, and your upper body, like, um, scapular muscles are also very important for postural, keeping you upright during running. So a bent over row or any tor- type of row, but the bent over row tends to be one of the, the go-tos that I, that I go with. Um, you can do a row machine instead. I like to often do a one-arm row with, uh, a cable machine, so there's different ways that you can do it, but having a row built in is important.

Speaker 2 42:17

One-arm row with a cable machine seems like that's helping you prevent the twisting also, so-

Speaker 42:22

Mm-hmm

Speaker 2 42:23

you're kind of getting some bonus off of that one. It can. Is the, the bent over row just an easy one to go with because you can do it with a dumbbell?

Speaker 42:30

You can do it with a dumbbell. A lot-

Speaker 2 42:31

And- A lot of other things require, like, a, a rowing machine.

Speaker 42:34

Yeah, and then the other reason, it, when you do a bent over row, your other hand is on the surface, whether it's a, a bench or a chair or the couch, you know, whatever it is that you... So you're stabilizing one side of the body while you're moving the other side of the body. So there's less compensation that can happen versus other types of rows.

Speaker 2 42:55

Okay. Sounds good. I'm on board. I, I do a row. Okay. And that's actually the type of row that I do- Mm-hmm so I'm good. So when- I'm good

Speaker 43:01

with this

Speaker 2 43:01

one.

Speaker 43:02

So when you do a row, the key is that you're focusing on keeping your spine neutral and driving the elbow back. So you're not just lifting the weight, you're really focusing on driving that elbow back. Um, and this is really important for, again, powering that efficient arm swing.

Speaker 2 43:18

So this is like starting up an old school lawn mower.

Speaker 43:22

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 43:22

Like, you really want to be pulling up quickly and then- Mm-hmm bringing the weight back down slower and smoother.

Speaker 43:27

Slower and smoother, yeah. Because when you're running, you're, you're gonna swing that arm back, but you also need to be able to control it on its way forward.

Speaker 2 43:35

Okay. So, all right, given the, given the whole idea that it has to stay in a neutral spine as you do this, you should probably check me next time I do a row because in all likelihood- my back is curved.

Speaker 43:46

All right. Exercise number two is a push-up. Which I'm gonna admit, I don't love push-ups. I'm not a big fan. Um, I, you can also, um... I much prefer, like, a bench press here, 'cause that would be the same type of motion. It's a pushing motion, motion, so the row is a pull, this is a push. Um, and we're, we're really working on, uh, our chest muscles, we're working on being able to brace, uh, the core's ability, really maintaining that rigid plank if you're doing the push-up. If you're doing a bench press, it's a little different because your back is on, um, the bench versus you having to actually stabilize. But with a push-up, uh, you're, you're getting the, the chest, the shoulders, the triceps are all, um, pushing the ground away from you as your body and as your core is maintaining that rigid plank position under load.

Speaker 2 44:40

I'm not a huge fan of push-ups.

Speaker 44:43

Me neither.

Speaker 2 44:44

I'm not a... Well, I'm not a big fan of prescribing them to our cross country kids. Okay. Because there's a lot of kids who can't do-

Speaker 44:50

Yeah

Speaker 2 44:51

uh, a proper, like, where it's, it's a full push-up, just your toes are on the ground, your hands are on the ground. Mm-hmm. And so then they go down to a knee, and I don't have an issue with knee push-ups.

Speaker 45:02

Mm-hmm. But- I don't either

Speaker 2 45:03

but most, I, I would say that almost everybody does knee push-ups wrong.

Speaker 45:09

Yes. I agree.

Speaker 2 45:10

And, and there- there's where it's like I would rather that you... I think it's easier to not screw the form up if you do a bench press or a chest press- Mm-hmm than if you're like, "I can't do a full push-up, I'm gonna go on my knees." Almost everybody goes with a super swayed back, and then, then I don't like the exercise at all.

Speaker 45:27

Yeah, yeah, or they stick their butt up in the air, and it's not a good thing. Yeah. So there's a couple- Butt

Speaker 2 45:31

way up in the air

Speaker 45:32

th- another way that you can progress this exercise. So if you don't have access to a bench, uh, a, a barbell, or dumbbells that are heavy enough to, to get a good bench press in, and if you wanna go- Mm-hmm with push-ups, I would say starting with wall push-ups is a really great way to start, especially if you have any s- type of shoulder issue. So your hands are on a wall, and your body is straight, and you're, you make like, um, like a 45 angle degree to the wall. Does that make sense, Kevin? Like- Yeah, you're, you're a lean to you kind of lean into the wall. You're what?

Speaker 2 46:04

You're a lean to.

Speaker 46:05

You're a lean to. So hands are on the wall, and you're just pushing the wall away from you. I think that's a really important cue, too. Um, I think that's one of the things that people don't do right with push-ups. When they push up, they're thinking about pushing themself up, and I like to often think about pushing the ground away from you. I think that it- Like you're Chuck Norris. Why

Speaker 2 46:24

Chuck Norris? Is- That was one of the Chuck Norris top lines, is Chuck- Oh, was it? doesn't, he doesn't push himself up, he pushes the world away.

Speaker 46:30

Oh, there you go. So yeah, think of Chuck Norris when you do push-ups. So, um, again, this is q- this is core stability under load. It's shoulder strength, it's postural endurance. But you can progress from wall pushups to chair pushups, 'cause then if you, you know, if the wall pushups become too easy, then you can put your hands on a chair so you're still up, you know, and, and so more of at an angle, and then you can kind of w- make your way down to the floor. You can put your knees down if you want to, as long as you're maintaining proper... The, the key with knee pushups is just that you're maintaining that straight back position and you're not letting your back, your butt go out, or your butt or your, um, lower back cave in.

Speaker 2 47:09

I would much rather prescribe chair pushups-

Speaker 47:12

Mm-hmm

Speaker 2 47:13

than prescribing knee pushups. Yep. I think that is brilliant.

Speaker 47:16

Yeah, or bench pushups.

Speaker 2 47:18

Yeah. That's excellent. All right. Per- What's next?

Speaker 47:20

Face pulls.

Speaker 2 47:22

So- That sounds painful.

Speaker 47:23

Yeah. Face pulls is an interesting one. So this is really good exercise for people that have rounded shoulders and a forward head, because the face pull, basically what you're doing is you're taking, um... Usually I do this with a, a resistance band or a cable machine, and you're pulling the weight up towards your face. And so it's really forcing you to get your shoulders in a back position and to get your head back as well, 'cause you're pulling towards your face. You can do it with a resistance band this way as well. Um, but that's- To hold the

Speaker 2 47:54

resistance band in front of you- Mm-hmm like in front of your mouth, and then stretch it out and essentially turn the resistance band- Pull

Speaker 48:03

it towards your face. Yeah. This is, this,

Speaker 2 48:05

that's- So the resistance band becomes a, um- A, a mustache? No. Uh- Yes, a mustache. Yes. A face

Speaker 48:15

mask

Speaker 2 48:15

A mustache. Yes.

Speaker 48:16

I don't know what you're going with for there. But yeah, so the face pull is going to help target your rear deltoids, your external rotators, those muscles of the, the back of your shoulder that's going to help promote a, a more upright posture.

Speaker 2 48:32

All right. Can you get your shoulders too high? Is that gonna be an issue?

Speaker 48:35

Yeah, you don't want... I mean, you don't wanna be pushing your shoulders up towards your ears. That's one of the, the main, um, problems that I see with people. But you're, you're getting it up, up here. And then if you pull from the ground, like if you put the... If you have a cable machine, and you put it from... And you're pulling up from the ground, the key is that you're coming up towards your face and not, like, towards your stomach.

Speaker 2 48:59

Oh, that's good. I like that one. Mm-hmm. Yeah, coming up from the ground and then lifting while focusing- It's- on not pinching your shoulders up into your ears

Speaker 49:07

yeah, and keeping your elbows high. The, the, you know, main thing that you have to be careful is, you know, any sort, any sort of shoulder pinching or shoulder impingement, 'cause people do tend to kind of push their shoulders up to their ears. We wanna keep the shoulders down and back, and really focus on the upper back muscles as doing the pulling.

Speaker 2 49:25

Yeah. I see this as one that your ego could get in the way of doing it right. Mm-hmm. That you're try- You're gonna end up trying to do too much weight, and then you're just gonna squeeze your shoulders up really high to lift- Right the weights, as opposed to doing what you're supposed to do.

Speaker 49:36

Exactly.

Speaker 2 49:37

I know, th- this one does not sound good, but it sounds like I might, I might need to do this one.

Speaker 49:42

Mm-hmm. It's a good one. I might. It's gonna be... I think it's gonna be in our next strength cycle, so stay tuned if you're a member. That's gonna be in our, our next six-week strength cycle.

Speaker 2 49:51

All right. Face pulling. Okay, good. All right. What do we got next?

Speaker 49:53

Number four is either a lat pulldown or a pull-up. Okay? So pull-ups tend to be hard for most people, I would say. I know that's a big statement to make, but I think a pull-up is a, is a tough exercise. And so you could do a lat pulldown instead. You could do that with a cable machine if you have access to a gym, or you can do this with a resistance band in your home, like with a, with a door anchor as well. You can be doing lat pulldowns. So the main focus here is your latissimus dorsi, which is, like, two big flat muscles on, on your back. They're the pulling muscles of the arm. And so this is really helpful with arm swing, getting your arm to pull back, um, and it's also good for postural stability and strength

Speaker 2 50:36

Yeah, this is a good one. I'm, I'm okay with this one. I, I liked when I had the ability to do pull-ups, and I don't think that that's that crazy of a blanket statement. Yeah. Um, I was checking before we hit record on, uh, and, uh, I f- oh, when I was searching to the, the thing of the elite marathoners that can't run- Mm-hmm can't do a pull-up. Yeah. And, um, obviously this is just a thing that popped up through social media, but someone suggested that 70% of adult men can't do a single pull-up.

Speaker 51:04

70%?

Speaker 2 51:05

Yeah.

Speaker 51:06

Yeah. Interesting. Which sounds right,

Speaker 2 51:08

though.

Speaker 51:08

So I think that the, the n- the, the number is probably smaller for women. Well, 70%... Eight, lar- larger for women. Like, w- more women can't do a pull-up because I think that in general, men tend to be stronger in the upper body than women.

Speaker 2 51:21

Yeah. But I mean, it's not just a, it's a strength, but it's a strength- Yeah to weight thing. Yeah. Like, if you're talking a pull-up, then you have to lift your whole body weight.

Speaker 51:28

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 51:29

And the average American can probably not- Yeah support their body weight.

Speaker 51:32

Yeah, I can't do a pull-up. I'll, I'll go ahead and admit it, you know, and be vulnerable here. I, if I, I can do pull-ups if my elbow is slightly bent. Like, I just, like, from a dead hang, I ha- I, I don't have the ability right now to do a pull-up. That's another thing that I'm working on this year, in addition to my 200-pound de- deadlift, is working on doing, like, a full pull-up from a dead hang. But, like, I can get it, like, as lo- if, as soon as my, if my elbows are, like, slightly bent, I can, I can do a full pull-up. But, um, yeah, not from the dead hang yet. So that's, that's something I'm working on.

Speaker 2 52:05

I know the most pull-ups I could ever do is right when we met because our, our beds were lofted in the dorm room. Mm-hmm. And so my roommate and I would just do pull-ups off of our beds periodically.

Speaker 52:14

Just to- Even when we did that P90X cycle? You, you were, did a bunch of pull-ups then.

Speaker 2 52:18

Ooh, yeah, maybe then. I was actually kind of strong then.

Speaker 52:20

Yeah you were. You still are. Um, all right. Moving, any, any other questions on that one?

Speaker 2 52:27

No. No, but I appreciate that pity little castoff comment there. That was nice.

Speaker 52:31

You still are.

Speaker 2 52:32

Uh-huh.

Speaker 52:33

All right. Number five is an overhead press. So usually for this one, um, dumbbells. You can do a barbell overhead press, but most people have access to dumbbells. So the reason I like dumbbells for this one is that way you're isolating each arm separately, and so one arm can't kick in and do more work. Like, if you were using a barbell, you can ki- uh, m- that's kind of the, the same thing, dumbbells versus barbells, no matter what exercise it is, but especially when, with overhead press. Um, this is an important exercise. So, so for this one, you're just holding two dumbbells in your hand, and you're pressing them up over your head. Um, that would be the, the overhead press. And this is really working on shoulder strength and stability. Um, it's really, really important for shoulder strength and stability, and then also just everyday life. Like, if you think about just putting dishes up in the cabinet, you know? Like, there's, this is a very functional exercise for everyday life as well.

Speaker 2 53:26

All right, so is there any difference of, like, do, do my hands face forward? Do my hands face in? Like- Mm-hmm is there anything to this? Or, like, there, that's all so nuanced that it's more important that runners are doing some form of overhead press.

Speaker 53:42

Yes, I agree, um, with, with that statement. Like, it, shoulder head press- or shoulder overhead press is important regardless of where your hand positions are. But yes, there is a difference, um, based on if your, if your palms are facing forward, if your palm- if your palms are facing each other. Um, you can even do them with your palms facing backwards and then twisting them out. That would be, like, more of an Arnold's p- uh, press. And, and yes, you kind of hit muscles a little bit differently. But here we're really focusing on our deltoids. We're working on our external, external rotators. But the key with overhead press, because this does have a tendency to get some pinching in the shoulder because a lot of people are weak here, so start with a lower weight. Make sure that you can perform it. Do it while you're watching yourself in the mirror if possible because you want to watch and make sure that when you're pressing up overhead, your shoulders, the tops of your shoulders are not coming up towards your ears. You want to keep your shoulders down and p- pressing up so that there's still a space maintained between your ear and the top of your shoulder. If you can maintain that, then you can go up in weight no problem, but as soon as you go up in weight and you notice that you're losing that space, it's time to, you know, work there for a while.

Speaker 2 54:54

Okay, that, that makes sense. Maybe, so in terms of palms facing forward or in, this might also affect with, like, which one doesn't pinch your, your shoulders. Yeah. But you could also just, you could vary it just for variety, too, as, as a runner. Mm-hmm. Like, 'cause we're not, we're not bodybuilding. And there's, there's clear differences in the different things, but if we're, we're looking for general shoulder stability, we're gonna do the one that, that... Honestly, we're gonna default to the one that's the easiest and doesn't pinch our shoulders.

Speaker 55:22

Yeah. And, and I... And that's what I would recommend, is making sure that you find a position that your shoulders don't f- have that pinch. So for most people, it's gonna be, uh, palms facing forward or s- or slightly turned in towards each other. So slight- like, 'cause even having them at a slight angle. And the other thing is you don't, uh, a lot of the big mistake people make is make, thinking that they need their elbows to be parallel with their body and pushing straight up, but that tends to put your shoulder in a more, um, compromising position. So I, I tend to bring the elbows forward. Like, if you drew a line from your body that, I call that the plane of the body, bring your shoulders and your elbows slightly forward in front of the plane of the body, and then push up, and that can be a lot more comfortable.

Speaker 2 56:06

Oh my word, that's drastically nicer on my shoulders.

Speaker 56:09

Yeah. Like- You don't, they don't have to be all the way out here. Just bring your should- your elbows forward a little bit more, and pressing up is gonna keep them-

Speaker 2 56:16

I mean, just- that slight difference in angle- Like is huge. People really should watch our YouTube video.

Speaker 56:21

Yeah. So if you guys, i- if you are questioning this while you're listening on the, on the podcast, go check out the YouTube video. You can see how we're doing it 'cause we're demonstrating as we're recording.

Speaker 2 56:32

It's hard to talk about them and not.

Speaker 56:34

All right. Any questions on that one?

Speaker 2 56:36

No, I'm great.

Speaker 56:37

Okay. So number six would be a tricep exercise. So tricep extension, um, there's a couple different ways that you can do this. The, my favorite way to do a tricep extension would be something like a s- what's called a skull crusher, where you're lying down on your back You lie down on your back and your, um, arms are extended straight up toward the ceiling, okay?

Speaker 2 57:01

Okay.

Speaker 57:01

Then you keep your elbows pointing toward the ceiling, and you just bend your arm at your elbow. So your, your upper arm is staying perpendicular to the ground, like if... And then your upper, your lower arm that's holding the weight, w- your lower arm is between your, your elbow and your wrist, that is bending and coming down towards your head, and then you straighten the elbow back up towards the ceiling.

Speaker 2 57:26

Uh, this is one of my least favorite tricep extensions.

Speaker 57:28

Oh, why?

Speaker 2 57:30

It's called skull crusher.

Speaker 57:31

I know, but it's, it's h- it helps to keep your shoulder in a better position, it helps to isolate your triceps, and you're working against gravity. So when you look at the world of tricep exercises, that's one of the most effective ones that you can do that has the least pinching on the shoulder and has the least, like, uh, risk for injury.

Speaker 2 57:53

Okay. So when I do that one- Yeah like, I've done that one before. That is not in my current repertoire, but I've done that one.

Speaker 57:58

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 57:59

I, I don't put both hands up. I only put weight in one hand.

Speaker 58:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2 58:03

And then I use my other hand and hold the elbow

Speaker 58:07

Love it

Speaker 2 58:08

so that I, it, it doesn't... O- otherwise, I literally feel like I, as it's named, I feel like I'm going to drop the weight on my forehead.

Speaker 58:16

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 58:17

That's fine. So I, I keep my hand- just kind of, uh, to me it stabilizes-

Speaker 58:21

Yep

Speaker 2 58:22

the, the elbow and keeps that from crashing in over my face.

Speaker 58:25

Mm, I love it, and that's a, a safe way to do it, and that way if for some reason you get to tho- those last couple of reps where it is hard, you c- you have your other hand there to help protect yourself, because you don't wanna obviously s- crush your skull.

Speaker 2 58:37

Okay. All right. Good.

Speaker 58:38

Okay. Another way that you

Speaker 2 58:39

can- So I'm, so I'm not cheating by having- Mm-hmm by having my hand on the elbow.

Speaker 58:42

No, I like it.

Speaker 2 58:43

Okay.

Speaker 58:43

Uh, so there are other ways that you can work your triceps. You could do an overhead press, um, where you hold the, the dumbbell above your head, and then you just bend your elbows and as you press the, the weight up and down. There's triceps dips, which a lot of people like. I don't love a tricep dip because I think it puts the shoulder in a compromising position. Mm. I think a lot of people get the shoulder part wrong. Yeah. I used to do that in high school. Um, and you can get a lot of pinching. I liked

Speaker 2 59:07

it.

Speaker 59:07

I don't love it. I liked it,

Speaker 2 59:08

but it hurt my shoulders.

Speaker 59:09

Yeah. So I don't love the tricep dip. Um, the other one that people do is the tricep kickback, um, and the tricep ki- kickback is okay, it's just not the... When you look at the physics and the torque o- of the efficiency of, of working that muscle, it's just not the, the most effective. You could also do a, a tricep pushdown if you have access to, um, a cable at the gym, or you could use resistance bands as well. If you have like a door anchor and just doing a tricep pushdown. Um, if you were doing a tricep pushdown, you would be locking those elbows next to your body and then just bending the, the forearm up and down, and focusing on really squeezing the muscle in the back of your arm, which is your triceps. Um, you're gonna probably need more weight with that one, because with that one you're working with gravity instead of against it, which is why I like the skull crusher better than that one, but that's also a really great exercise, especially if you have, um, any s- any type of shoulder pain or just access to certain equipment.

Speaker 2 1:00:04

Th- uh, that's why I like that one, because I don't hurt my shoulder doing it.

Speaker 1:00:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:00:08

But you're right, I do, I cheat on it. I, if I don't, if I'm not feeling it that day but my ego gets in the way, I let my elbows not tuck tight into my body-

Speaker 1:00:17

Yeah

Speaker 2 1:00:17

and then I can use, I can use a whole heck of a lot of muscles that are not my tricep to- Yeah start the motion, and then I use triceps to continue the momentum.

Speaker 1:00:26

Right, and then think about the position that you go into in order to get more weight.

Speaker 2 1:00:32

Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:00:33

you tend to round your shoulders forward, right? And, like, push, push your body forward to try to, like, kind of push your body to compensate versus pulling your shoulders back. So-

Speaker 2 1:00:43

No, no. I curve my back.

Speaker 1:00:45

You curve your back the other way?

Speaker 2 1:00:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1:00:47

Okay.

Speaker 2 1:00:48

Which it's also, also bad.

Speaker 1:00:50

There we go. All right. Number seven is the Pallof press.

Speaker 2 1:00:54

Um- I've never even heard of this one.

Speaker 1:00:55

Yeah, this is a good one. I know Kevin came up to me before we recorded and was like, "What is this one?" So for this one, it's, it's essentially an anti-rotation exercise. Um, and what you do is you stand next to... Okay, so you're gonna use a resistance band or a cable with this one And you, you stand k- okay, so if you were to s- if your resistance band was anchored on, like, say the same level as, like, a doorknob, right? Yep. That's kind of... 'Cause you want this, the resistance band is gonna be around belly button height. So your anchor... So say you're facing the doorknob, and then you just turn 90 degrees away from the door. Does this make sense?

Speaker 2 1:01:35

Yep.

Speaker 1:01:36

Okay. So you're turned 90 degrees away, so the, the resistance band is coming into you from the side. So the, if the resistance band was, was to pull, it would rotate you towards the door. So it's your goal to keep it directly in front of your belly button, and then press the band or the handle away from your body, and then pull it back in without letting your body rotate. So the goal is complete, like, c- core stabilization and stability without letting your body rotate. So you're pressing, you're holding that, the handle of the resistance band with both hands, and you're pressing it away from your, your belly button and then pulling it back in. I'll, I'll put up a, an exercise demonstration, like, on YouTube or something to, to demonstrate the proper form. Or of course, you can always Google it, because there's plenty of other people out there that have demonstrations for it. It's called a Pallof press.

Speaker 2 1:02:29

Yeah. Which, is, is this spelled right? P-A-L-L-O-F?

Speaker 1:02:32

Yes.

Speaker 2 1:02:33

It's probably named after somebody. Yeah. Dr. Pa- Dr. Pallof.

Speaker 1:02:36

Uh, I mean, I hope it's a doctor, but who knows? S-

Speaker 2 1:02:39

I'm sure. If it's not, it is now. Yeah. I give him the honorary doctor.

Speaker 1:02:44

Boom. So the whole goal here is your core is fighting to not rotate. So-

Speaker 2 1:02:49

This is a weird one because- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm you're, you're not moving against the resistance band. The resistance band, if the resistance s- like, if the door is to your left- Mm-hmm the resistance band wants to pull your hands to the left. Yeah. But you're just moving your hands forward and backwards. Right. You're not moving them to the right. You're not moving them to the left and then swinging- Yeah back in front of you. You're just going from your belly button straight out and back as everything about the resistance band tries to make you twist and turn to the left.

Speaker 1:03:18

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 1:03:19

It's, that's an interesting one.

Speaker 1:03:20

I- You got it

Speaker 2 1:03:21

I have never

Speaker 1:03:22

done this. It's super, it's super effective. Um, it's a great rehab exercise. Any, any sort of lower back pain, hip pain, it's, it's, it's a great exercise. All right, number eight. Have I not

Speaker 2 1:03:32

done this as part of my rehab because I'm not ready for it yet?

Speaker 1:03:34

Not yet.

Speaker 2 1:03:35

Okay.

Speaker 1:03:36

You will be All right, number eight, band pull aparts. Okay, so this is a super simple low load type of exercise. I had my mom do this one this morning. It's great for scapular stability, rear, um, in your rear deltoids, your, the posterior deltoid muscles, which help to keep your shoulder blades down and back and your chest open during running. So all you do here is you hold a resistance band at chest height. Um, the closer your hands are, the harder it is. The further apart your hands are on the band, the easier it's going to be. So you just hold that resistance band straight out in front of you with your palms facing down, and you just pull it apart. And as you pull your arms apart and you pull the, the resistance band, you stretch the resistance band. You're really thinking about squeezing your upper back muscles, like you're squeezing your shoulder blades together, pulling back. Like I was telling my mom this morning, I'm like, "The goal is not to pull with your arms. The goal is to pull with your back."

Speaker 2 1:04:30

Yeah. No, I'm, I, I'm on board with this one. This one does not need a whole lot of, of stuff. Yeah. Any time you tell me- This is- squeeze, squeeze my shoulder blades, that, that's good cuing to

Speaker 1:04:38

me. Yeah. Well, and this is a really great warm-up exercise as well. Like, so n- some of these things don't need to be added into your, quote-unquote, "strength training" portion. This is a great mobility and warm-up exercise, just to kind of get the, the muscles firing before you do some of the heavier stuff.

Speaker 2 1:04:52

Yeah, but if you've been avoiding upper body strength, this is a full-blown exercise also.

Speaker 1:04:56

Sure, yeah, absolutely. Um, all right, number nine is the dead bug with w- the arm reach. Okay, so this is a lot of coordination. So this is helping to train your arms and your legs to move. It's a big coordination exercise. It's a really good exercise for your brain and that neuromuscular connection. So- So

Speaker 2 1:05:18

right before you do it, you should rub your stomach and pat your head, and then- And then

Speaker 1:05:22

do it then dead bug. Yeah. So basically what you're doing is you lie on your back, and your hands are straight up pointing towards the ceiling. Your knees are bent, and then you extend one arm back over your head, and then you extend the opposite leg at the same time. And then you pull them back to center. You extend one arm and the opposite leg, and then you pull them back to center.

Speaker 2 1:05:43

Okay, so it's called dead bug. Y- your feet are off the ground the entire time, right?

Speaker 1:05:47

Yes.

Speaker 2 1:05:47

Okay. 'Cause when you say, you say-

Speaker 1:05:49

That's the, like the... Ideally, yes, but if you have a hard time maintaining spinal stability, you can keep your feet on the ground, like if you're feeling a lot of strain in the lower back. 'Cause the whole goal for this exercise is spine stability while the legs and the arms are moving in that coordinated- Like contralateral pattern

Speaker 2 1:06:09

Okay. Um, but you could go into like a, a classic sit-up position where you're like you're on the ground, and your knees are bent, and your feet are actually on the ground?

Speaker 1:06:18

You would... I would start people off doing that with just the arms first. Okay. And then, yeah, and then you could add opposite arm, opposite leg while the knees are bent and the feet were on the ground, and you just pull them together. And then you would lift the legs. 'Cause, like, doing it with legs lifted and arms lifted, opposite arm, opposite leg at the same time is the most advanced part of the exercise. So there's lots of ways that you can kind of pull it back from there. One of the first ways I would pull it back would be, um, arms are up, legs are up, and the legs don't move. The legs just stay in, in place as you move just the arms. So you get just the arm piece in. Then I would ju- do just the legs, so then the arms don't move, and then I would work on just one leg out, other leg out, just alternating legs out so that you're learning the spine stability with just one, either your upper body moving or your lower body moving. And then I would try to add them together. And if that was too much, then yes, you could put your feet down on the ground, and then just lift the foot off the ground, and then put it back down on the ground to give your back that, um, that rest it needs in between.

Speaker 2 1:07:22

I, I like the idea of having my hands up and just doing the legs without having to work the coordination. Yeah. I feel like that might be where I currently live.

Speaker 1:07:32

Yeah. We'll try it. We'll see. We'll film it

Speaker 2 1:07:36

Excellent

Speaker 1:07:36

We'll film it and put it up on social media maybe.

Speaker 2 1:07:38

Great.

Speaker 1:07:39

All right. Number 10 is the farmer's carry. So farmer's carry is either holding, um, uh, dumbbells or kettlebells at your side. You can hold weight plates if you've got that. And you literally just hold them next to your body and you walk as if you were... It's called a farmer's carry because farmers are always carrying, like, buckets or various things in their hand and walking from place to place. So this is fantastic for grip strength, shoulder stability, thoracic posture, and your core bracing with a load attached to it. So, like, you have to stay, like, you, y- And then you work your load up. You know, you work up to being able to carry heavier weights.

Speaker 2 1:08:18

Okay. When you first start this-

Speaker 1:08:20

Yeah

Speaker 2 1:08:20

are you, like, w- what are you gonna screw up? Like, you'll screw your posture up. You're gonna naturally shrug your shoulders up. Like, something's gonna-

Speaker 1:08:27

Yeah, I think shrugging, I think shoulder shrugging tends to be one of the first things people do, is that they, like, they, they stiffen up the upper body. So the goal is to keep your shoulders down and away from your ears. The other second thing that I think people would probably do would be to arch their back. Yeah. Um, so that would be a, another thing. So you want to keep your core braced. You want to try to maintain a neutral spine. Um, the, the other thing they do is v- stay very stiff, and it's okay if, like, your arms swing a little bit. The goal is not to be completely stiff in the upper body. But it's really getting that postural endurance under load.

Speaker 2 1:08:58

Yeah, 'cause it's, I think, two, two or three football coaches away, the, the football team used to do this.

Speaker 1:09:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:09:04

And I was watching a lot of what looked like they were gonna hurt themselves. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:09:08

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:09:09

So-

Speaker 1:09:09

I mean, so y- again, it's one of those things where you, you do the heaviest weight that you can while still maintaining good form and avoiding muscle compensation patterns.

Speaker 2 1:09:18

I mean, I think that is the takeaway from all of these- Yeah is the heaviest weight that you can without screwing form up. Mm-hmm. And that is such an ego thing of, like, "No, no, no. I should be able to do more than five pounds in a hand." Mm-hmm. It's like, well, okay, maybe, but you can't. Yeah. So that's what you're going to do today.

Speaker 1:09:35

Yep, exactly. So if 10 s- feels like too much, okay, so that's all 10 of them. If, if 10 feels like too much, you start with three. Okay? You start with a, a pull, a push, and a, and a stabilization exercise. Okay? So the ones that I would choose would be the bent over row, because that very much directly mim- mimics, like, the arm swing motion in running. So you would do a bent over row, a pushup, or s- if, if you can't do the pushups yet, you could do the overhead press, and then the Pallof press, because you wanna start working that, that thoracic extension and anti-rotation.

Speaker 2 1:10:11

That's a push, pull, and an anti-twist?

Speaker 1:10:14

And an anti-twist.

Speaker 2 1:10:15

Okay.

Speaker 1:10:16

Yeah. So that would be a g- a, a great place to start. But, like, thinking of 'em that way, of push-pull, and, like, going back and thinking of this exer- or, you know, going through the list of exercises, okay, is that a push exercise or is that a pull exercise? And make y- making sure you have at least one of each in your daily strength sessions or, you know, strength str- strength sessions, like two to three times per week is very important.

Speaker 2 1:10:38

So because the- Mm I want, I wanna press on when I'm doing one, I wanna pull when I'm doing one. If, if I'm doing a press on my Tuesday lift and I do a different press on my Thursday lift- Mm-hmm this still counts towards the, I want a certain number of sets of pressing during the week- Throu- even though they're not exactly the same thing?

Speaker 1:10:58

Right, throughout the week. And, and then you're also looking at, like, what muscles am I working on, right? Because that, the, it's gonna work, your pecs are a push muscle, your deltoids, your shoulders are a push muscle, right? So it's like, which muscles am I specifically working on, too? But that's, that starts to get into more complicated than it needs to be. Because we don't, we're not bodybuilders. We're not working on, um- defining every single individual muscle, right? We want to do enough so that we can improve our running economy, we can run faster, we don't have back pain, and we have good shoulders, 'cause that's important, too. You know, like, like a lot of these upper body exercises are gonna be really good for your shoulders. Oh, actually, I forgot my bonus exercise, 'cause I did wanna put one more bonus exercise in here.

Speaker 2 1:11:40

Oh, God.

Speaker 1:11:41

Um, shoulder external rotation for rotator cuff stability. So there's a couple ways that, that you can do this. You can do this with a dumbbell. Um, you can do it with a dumbbell lying on your side, where your elbow stays pressed into your side and you're just rotating that weight. Like, your elbow is bent to 90 degrees, elbow stays pressed into the side if you're lying on your side, and then you rotate the weight up toward the ceiling and then back down, okay? You can also do it with a resistance band with your elbows locked into your, the side of your body, holding the resistance band with your palms facing up and then pulling apart. Yep, exactly. Oh, okay. Thank you, Kevin. That's a good one, right? Um, and then you could also do it with a dumbbell propped up onto your knee, um, or you could do it, like, with your arm against the wall and doing it this way, okay? But ultimately, we wanna do that shoulder external rotation because it helps to im- increase the strength of the rotator cuff, and the rotator cuff is very important for shoulder stability with a lot of these other exercises. So if you have a lot of pinching or pain in your shoulder, you definitely wanna be doing external rotation, um, and sh- and rotator cuff strengthening. It's just gonna be a really good idea, no matter who you are, what you're doing. Um, for a shoulder, to help avoid shoulder pain, it helps with neck pain. Um, rotator cuff strengthening is very important.

Speaker 2 1:13:00

So you'd put that one almost as, as a required fourth one-

Speaker 1:13:04

Yes

Speaker 2 1:13:05

especially if as you're going through and trying to do some of these 10 ones, almost every exercise you feel a pinch in your shoulder.

Speaker 1:13:11

Mm-hmm. Yep. Then, yeah I would do, I, I would do this one at least once a week. Okay. Um, but you could even put it in there a little bit more as part of your warmup exercises, right? Like, as part of your mobility and your warmup before your, um, strength session, doing some shoulder external rotation would be a great thing.

Speaker 2 1:13:26

Yeah, 'cause I can't imagine that you're lifting very much with that. Right. It's really, it's really

Speaker 1:13:30

mobility. Oh, yeah. No. Yeah, no, you should not be lifting heavy weights. You're like, your, your rotator cuff muscles are very, very small muscles. We're not looking to increase the weight significantly on

Speaker 2 1:13:39

those. Sounds good.

Speaker 1:13:41

Um, all right. What other... You have any other questions?

Speaker 2 1:13:44

It just seems like a lot of exercises, but I guess if it's-

Speaker 1:13:47

Well, 10 is a lot, and, and you're not doing all of those every single day

Speaker 2 1:13:51

Yeah, and if I split it into pushes and pulls-

Speaker 1:13:54

Mm-hmm

Speaker 2 1:13:55

and twists-

Speaker 1:13:57

Mm-hmm

Speaker 2 1:13:57

and I make sure that I get... I, I mean, you can kind of divide the list into, like, three.

Speaker 1:14:02

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:14:02

So- And

Speaker 1:14:03

it's only, like, three exercises each

Speaker 2 1:14:05

and then you can do three shorter lifting sessions.

Speaker 1:14:08

Right.

Speaker 2 1:14:08

Or you can do two lifting sessions, and then that last day you're like, "All right, I only have to do three exercises." Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:14:14

Or you can just join the team, our, our membership program, and we'll program all of your strength training for you.

Speaker 2 1:14:20

That's also true.

Speaker 1:14:21

There you go. All right, you guys. If you have any questions, please reach out. Um, leave us a comment on Spotify, on social media. Reach out, tell us what you liked, um, what questions do you have. We are here to help guide you. And if you do want programming, if you don't h- wanna have to try to figure this all out yourself and you want video demonstrations of all the exercises, a fresh set of exercises every six weeks that you can follow, check it out over at realiferunners.com/team, 'cause this is what we do inside the membership. And as always, thanks for joining us. This has been the Real Life Runners Podcast, episode number 472. Now get out there and run your life.