471: Your Guide to Crewing an Ultramarathon

Crewing an ultramarathon is so much more than handing someone water and cheering from the sidelines. Over the past few years of crewing Kevin through multiple 100-mile races, I've learned that my role isn't just to support him. It's to help him get to the finish line. That mindset completely changed the way I approach race day. In this episode, I share the lessons I've learned, the mistakes I've made, and the systems we've developed that have made every race smoother than the last.

Kevin also shares what it's like from the runner's perspective and what actually helps when you're hours into an ultramarathon and your brain is running low on energy. We talk about everything from treating aid station stops like an F1 pit stop to having the difficult conversations before race day, creating a detailed crew plan, packing for every possible scenario, and remembering that taking care of the crew is just as important as taking care of the runner. Whether you're getting ready to crew your first ultramarathon or you're the runner sending this episode to your support team, I hope these lessons help you feel more prepared and confident.

Get your Ultimate Ultramarathon Guide here!

02:05 From Scared Wife to Crew Chief

04:08 Keys 100 Lessons Learned

09:43 What Crewing Really Means

12:52 F1 Pit Stop Mindset

16:38 Crewing With Kids

20:10 Planning Starts Early

21:01 Know the Race Rules

26:42 Pre Race Crew Conversation

37:00 Build the Crew Document

39:30 Assign Roles and Checklists

42:35 Packing and Supply Runs

43:44 Crew Community Help

45:11 Nutrition Planning Backups

46:33 Hydration Strategy Gear

47:32 Clothing Foot Care

49:39 First Aid Comfort Items

53:46 Crew Self Care Logistics

55:11 Pit Stop Checklist Setup

01:01:04 Aid Station Mistakes

01:04:30 Psychology Mood Decisions

01:08:33 DNF Medical Triage

01:14:07 Crew Chief Self Care

Gain access to my new secret podcast, Unbreakable: The Runner's Guide To Injury-Proofing Your Body After 40. Click here: https://www.realliferunners.com/secret

Join the Team! -->  https://www.realliferunners.com/team 

Thanks for Listening!!

Be sure to hit FOLLOW on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player

 Leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Your ratings and reviews really help and we read each one!

Come find us on Instagram and say hi!

Don't forget: The information on this website is not intended to treat or diagnose any medical condition or to provide medical advice. It is intended for general education in the areas of health and wellness. All information contained in this site is intended to be educational in nature. Nothing should be considered medical advice for your specific situation.

Transcript

angie 0:00

All right, so in our last episode, we talked all about how to run your first ultramarathon, and most of that was from Kevin's perspective. Today, we're gonna be focusing on how to crew an ultramarathon, and all the lessons that I've learned as a crew chief, and then also Kevin's perspective as a runner, and the things that he liked that we did, and maybe some of the things that he didn't like that we did, so that you can either crew your first race, or if you are a runner doing your first ultramarathon, you can send this episode to your crew chief or whoever is helping you crew your race. So stay tuned. What's up, runners? Welcome back to the show. It's episode number 471, and today we're talking all about crewing an ultramarathon. What's up, Kev? Hey,

kevin 1:06

how's it going?

angie 1:07

Oh, we are gonna have some fun, 'cause we're talking about one of your favorite things, ultramarathons.

kevin 1:12

Yeah, and this one's gonna be interesting 'cause it's from your perspective, but then also get some of mine.

angie 1:17

Yeah.

kevin 1:17

It's, uh, it- it'll be an interesting one, 'cause there's like, well, how did that feel to you as a runner? I'm like, "I didn't even know that happened."

angie 1:23

Yeah. Well, that's my, part of my job, is to not let you understand all the things that happen, too. Um, but the other thing I want to really encourage you to do, Kev, is, um, tell the truth in this. And not that you lie, but sometimes- y- you know, I really want you to share your perspective, and if there's anything that I did that you didn't like, I want you to tell our listeners about that also, because I think that's really important. And understand also, guys, that no matter what we say in this episode, everything's going to be very individual. You know, Kevin is not the same runner as the runner that you are or the runner that you might be helping. And so part of what we're gonna be going over today is the conversations that you need to have with the runner. Like, either you as a runner or you as a crew chief, these are the conversations that you and the crew need to have before the race, be- so that you set yourself up for the most amount of success during the race as well.

kevin 2:17

Yeah, 100%. The conversations, I think, is i- almost as important as- Mm-hmm what happens during the actual race itself.

angie 2:24

Yeah, for sure. So I'm gonna start off with a little bit of my story, because I made a really big shift in my journey. I've made lots of big shifts. I've learned a lot along the way, um, in my journey as Kevin's crew chief. And one of the biggest th- shifts that I feel like I've made is the shift from scared wife to crew chief. Because the first time that Kevin ran 100-mile race, which was the Keys 100 back in 2023, um- Sounds

kevin 2:56

right

angie 2:56

one of the biggest things th- that I was operating from is I didn't want Kevin to die. I, like- And I, I genuinely didn't think he was going to die, but there was that fear, and part of that fear was due to the course that he was running on, because the Keys 100, h- he just, a lot of the race is just run on the road. And if you have ever driven to the Keys or through the Keys, you know that a lot of the roads down there are basically two-lane highways. It's one way north and one way south, and Kevin was running on the shoulder of that, and that- course alone just made me very nervous. And then of course, there was how Kevin was responding to it, and the heat, and the Saharan dust cloud that was over the top of us. And there was just so many unknowns in that race that I w- went into that race with the intention of being the best crew chief that I could be. I had, my good friend was in our crew as well, um, because that one, it was, was going to require more driving. And, um, we didn't know how long it was gonna take Kevin to do any of this stuff. And so there was a lot of things that we did that time that we definitely learned from and made it better throughout the time, um, that Kevin has done the last four ultramarathons. So

kevin 4:14

Kevin- I mean, even just over the course of that race- Yeah you guys improved as it was going. Yeah. And then from that race to the next one was improvement, from that race to the next one. Mm-hmm. It keep, just keep getting better at doing the thing. Yeah. And then keep throwing more challenges at it.

angie 4:27

Yeah. And one of the biggest shifts for me came Before your second ultramarathon, because we attended that race meeting. So kind of going back a little bit to the first ultramarathon that Kevin did with the Keys 100, one of the big things that I thought was my job was to calculate all of his calorie intake. So I really calculated and recorded every item of food, and really treated this whole thing as a science experiment. I had a whole spreadsheet of all the calories, and we were trying our best to record every morsel of food that Kevin put into his mouth to make sure that he was getting enough calories, 'cause that was one of my biggest fears is not giving him enough food in order for him to sustain and be able to run this, this race. And quite honestly, it didn't really work that well. It worked okay, but even with our best preparation and calculations, Kevin ended up with a ton of GI problems on that first race. Uh, that was ultimately one of the biggest things that led him to decide to, to quit the race and DNF. Um, and quite honestly, when he made that decision to quit, I was relieved because, and this is, I know that's kind of a bad thing to say considering as a crew chief it's my job to get Kevin to the finish line, which is, I think that's kind of, like, the working title I have in my head right now, um, is it's my job to get you to the finish line. Because that's one of the things I realized in race two. Because once we got to race two, which was the Daytona 100, in the following year, we went, we were able to make it up there in time for the pre-race meeting. And as part of that pre-race meeting and debrief, they had a whole bunch of experts, like a, a, a panel of coaches and runners and race organizers up there to answer questions. And one of the biggest things that I took away from that meeting was, as the crew chief, it is your job to get your runner to the finish line. They are going to wanna quit along the way. They are going to be having all sorts of problems along the way, and it is your job to get them to the finish line. And so I came into that second race with a whole different mentality, which is one that I think we should all have if you are going to be the crew chief of the race, versus my mentality as scared wife, "Oh, thank God he's done," after the first one, right? Because I, I did push him in the first race. Like, there were times that Kevin did wanna quit before he actually decided to pull the plug, and I was like, "Well, just go a little bit further. Just go a little bit further." But, um, especially at the end, 'cause he was, he decided to pull out of that race right before sunset. And ho- honestly, that was my, that was the scariest part for me, was him running in the dark on these, the shoulders of these two-lane highways down through the Keys. Like, that was really scary for me, thinking that he might be hit by a car. Um, and so when he decided to not continue on, I was like, "Okay." Like, and, and there was a big part of me that questioned him and made sure that this was a decision that he wanted. He had been saying this for a long time now. Um, but I was, I was really relieved. And so really that big shift that I made, I think, kind of changed the game.

kevin 7:34

Yeah, that changed. And I mean, ultimately, I was, I was not as well prepared for the first one as I should've been.

angie 7:39

Mm-hmm.

kevin 7:40

I was not as, as prepared for the heat. We didn't have plans for handling the heat.

angie 7:44

Yeah.

kevin 7:44

Um, that, that I think- I

angie 7:45

mean, we did

kevin 7:46

right. We did. And

angie 7:47

we- We did. We had lots of ice bandanas. We had lots of ice and water and cooler. Like, we did have plans. I mean, don't think we didn't. And you guys are gonna see when we- we're gonna get into some of the nitty-gritty details in this episode. There's plenty of plans that we had. It just wasn't working that well.

kevin 8:02

Yeah, it's not like we winged it. I just, I would take a different approach now. Mm-hmm. And the weather was really uncooperative. Yes. Because it was a very mild spring, and then, like- Mm-hmm the week before the race, it became, like, a million degrees.

angie 8:16

Yeah.

kevin 8:16

And then this, this hair and dust cloud came over, which made, like- Mm-hmm the air quality worse, and there was just no cloud coverage. Like, but there wasn't, there wasn't time. You're like, "Oh, well, you're training in South Florida, so you're gonna be ready for the heat."

angie 8:28

Yeah.

kevin 8:28

But it was such a mild spring.

angie 8:30

Mm-hmm.

kevin 8:31

And suddenly just, bam, it got really, really hot-

angie 8:33

Yeah

kevin 8:33

for the race itself.

angie 8:35

So I know how I felt during, like, race one versus race two. Did you feel there was a shift in me and the way that I showed up between race one and race two as well with that different mentality?

kevin 8:48

I don't think so.

angie 8:49

Okay.

kevin 8:49

Like, from my side, it, I didn't really notice a lot, and you've told me this repeatedly-

angie 8:53

Yeah

kevin 8:53

that you came in and, and, like, you've repeated that thing that you learned from the, the meeting that we went to.

angie 8:59

Yeah.

kevin 8:59

I'm very glad that we made it to that meeting, um, because it seems to help you as- Mm-hmm crew chief. Which-

angie 9:07

Yeah

kevin 9:08

whatever helps your mindset as crew chief is then going to trickle down to me as runner. Like, I'm so focused on other things, whatever helps you stay calm. So if you've got this focus of, "I need to get him to the finish line"-

angie 9:20

Mm-hmm

kevin 9:20

that's great because then that sort of, that feeling, that calm, that, like, this is the, the main goal that matters is getting to the finish line, that's what drives the ship.

angie 9:30

Yeah. And I mean, I, I definitely had that in the first race. You know, it just, I think it was more of a mixture of things, of, you know, I, I think that there was definitely a fear that was just the kind of more of an undercurrent. Like, it definitely wasn't driving the ship. I was definitely trying to get you to the finish line and trying to get, encourage you to continue to go on. But there was kind of that underlying fear there. And I think that part of this is also the confidence, now that you've done this four times, of, "Yeah, he can do this. He's not gonna die. It's gonna be okay. I just, now it's my job to really get him through it." And so I wanna start off the episode by really talking about what crewing is and what it isn't. Because one of the biggest mistakes, I think, that people may make when they decide to sign up to be a crew is thinking that they're gonna go to the race to, like, cheer on the runner. And crewing is not spectating. It is a very active role. It's an active support role. It requires preparation and organization and truly its own kind of physical endurance, um, because, yes, Kevin's the one running, but as the crew chief, it is my job to take all of the emotional and mental load off of the runner as well. It is my job to make sure that he has everything that he needs physically and also mentally and emotionally. I can't let him know if, like, things are not going smoothly with us or with, you know, any of the situation. It's my job to essentially stay cool under pressure, make sure he feels cool and he feels confident that he's able to keep going. So I think that- If you kind of look at what your job is basically, it's to support the runner. It's to get the, the runner in and out of the aid station in as little time as possible, get them rehydrated, refueled, refocused, and back off on the course as quickly and as, as efficiently as possible to keep them moving toward the finish line, even when they don't want to. Because there's going to be plenty of times, and Kevin talked about that last episode a lot, about, you know, those times that you, your mind's just like, "No, I don't wanna do this anymore." You have to have that good why, and as the crew chief, I need to know those, and we're gonna t- be talking, you know, in, in a little bit here about the conversations that you need to have with your runner so that I can remind him of his why and keep him moving forward.

kevin 11:52

Yeah, and, and crewing is so weird because you have to stay on, like, the entire time. There's downtime where you're not running, where you're waiting for me to get to it. Yeah. But depending on what the course is, 'cause we've done a couple things.

angie 12:03

Mm-hmm.

kevin 12:04

Like Daytona, you're driving down the road and sort of, like, leapfrogging me- Right as, as I run, and then the Long-Ass 100, you essentially stay in a spot-

angie 12:14

Mm-hmm

kevin 12:14

and I run loops and keep coming back to you.

angie 12:16

Yeah.

kevin 12:17

And I don't know how many times you went out last time, but the first time we did it, you guys, like, in the middle of the race, left and went and got lunch and came back. Mm-hmm. And then y- you're able to make some trips, um The aid stations that are, like, on course, those people just stay at one spot.

angie 12:32

Mm-hmm.

kevin 12:32

And runners kind of pass through. And so they, they are always seeing new people. You get to see me continuously throughout the race, and so you have to deal with m- with me as the runner in all sorts of different states.

angie 12:45

Mm-hmm.

kevin 12:46

Like, if you're cr- if you're running an aid station for a 100-mile race and you're aid station around mile 20, you're gonna deal with a lot of people feeling pretty good.

angie 12:55

Mm-hmm. And

kevin 12:55

you're just like, "All right. Looking great, looking strong." Yeah. Very different than the vibe that you have to bring if you're monitoring, like, mile 80 aid station.

angie 13:02

Mm-hmm.

kevin 13:03

You have to cover all of them.

angie 13:06

Yeah.

kevin 13:06

And I think that that's what makes it tricky.

angie 13:08

Yeah, that's a really good point. I'm, I'm glad that you pointed that out from your point of view. So again, going back to just kind of like the basics of what crew- crewing is and what it is not, a, a good point of view to kind of take as a crew chief is to think about it like an F1 pit stop, right? In F1 racing, the goal-- the car comes into the, into the, um, pit stop. And y- I mean, if you've ever watched an F1 race, it is crazy how fast all of these things happen. The, the tires get changed, the f- the car gets fueled. Like, all these things happen, and they are in and out very, very quickly. And I think this is one of the things that I've done well and not well. Um, I think that- part of, um, Kevin sometimes will come into the, the pit stop, and I'll start asking him questions. And again, these are some of the mistakes that I've made. Start ask-- a- and questions are good. Not, asking questions is not a, a problem. But I think I've tried to kind of let him have that downtime in the, in the rest stops when he really wanted to just kind of get back out on the road. And so I think it's important to, again, find that balance of what your runner needs and what their expectations are. Because if you think about how much time that could add, if there are 10 aid stations or 10, you know, times that the runner sees you, and you take even just six minutes at each aid station, which doesn't seem like a long time, especially if you have to go to the bathroom, you have to get snacks, that's a full hour added on to the race. And so what you don't wanna be doing is socializing with your runner or trying to process your own emotions about how the race is going or make decisions that belong to the runner. And that, that's, again, going to go ahead to, um, to jump ahead to what conversations you wanna have ahe- ahead of time before the race even starts. There's gonna be decisions that belong to the runner, and then there's gonna be decisions that belong to you as a crew chief. And I think that that's one of the things that I've taken on as the crew chief that I think are very important because it's my job when Kevin gets tired to make the decisions for him based on the information that we've already discussed. So it's, it's really Kevin's decisions, but it's me making sure that those are the decisions that are carried out.

kevin 15:21

Yeah, I mean, when you talk about sitting in an aid station 10, 10 different aid stations along the way, adding an hour, for people that are trying to beat cutoffs-

angie 15:28

Yeah

kevin 15:28

an extra hour is insane.

angie 15:31

Mm-hmm.

kevin 15:31

If you're missing, if you're hitting cutoffs by, like, a couple of minutes-

angie 15:34

Yeah

kevin 15:35

you know, and those, those times just keep adding up. So while there is stuff that needs to happen in an aid station and you can't rush it because you don't want t- everything to feel like crazy.

angie 15:45

Mm-hmm.

kevin 15:45

You talk about, like, the F1 pit stop. If you look at the driver, they just sit there and calm and take a couple of breaths. Mm-hmm. The people changing tires around them are flying every direction.

angie 15:56

Mm-hmm. But

kevin 15:57

the driver is just sitting there calmly, waiting for someone to say, "Hit the gas pedal again."

angie 16:02

Yeah.

kevin 16:02

And a- as, as the person running, that's all you want. Like, it is not time to have a little chat about other things that are happening in the race. Mm-hmm. I don't have the mental bandwidth to have that conversation.

angie 16:13

Yeah.

kevin 16:14

I mean, if, if we're talking- And

angie 16:14

I, and I've tried. I've tried before. So believe me, this is like, I'm like, "Yay," because he runs, he goes out and runs, and I haven't seen him for four hours. I'm like, "How's it going?" You know, like, that's not really the conversation he wants to have, especially if the answer is, "Not well."

kevin 16:30

Yeah. And, but there's, there are conversations that needs to happen-

angie 16:33

Yeah

kevin 16:34

but they need to be productive conversations.

angie 16:36

Right.

kevin 16:36

Like, every bit of the pit stop has to have, uh, a point and a purpose.

angie 16:40

Mm-hmm.

kevin 16:41

And that, that purpose might be you're gonna relax for, like, three minutes. Maybe that's what it is.

angie 16:46

Yeah.

kevin 16:46

And then you could socialize. Like, if you know, hey, no, no, no, we just need some downtime. We need to cool you down a little bit-

angie 16:51

Mm-hmm

kevin 16:51

then it's fine to socialize. If, if that's not the process, then it needs to be efficient and out of there.

angie 16:57

Yeah. So this is a really interesting perspective because the crew for all of Kevin's ultramarathons have been me and our two daughters. And then, like I said, I, the first race I did bring a, one friend along because I wasn't sure how I was gonna respond as the crew chief, if I needed a backup driver. That was a big piece of it, too. Um, and then the, uh, last three races we've done just the three of us, or just the four of us, the total. Kevin plus the, me and our two girls. Um, and so our girls have gotten older, obviously, over the last couple of years. Um, and so, and they've also started to understand it more, 'cause when we started this whole process they were younger, and they were just happy to see Dad. And so it was me really trying to manage what was going on with Kevin, and also make sure that the girls were helping enough, but also not taking up too much of, like, Kevin's emotional energy either, even though they were so excited to see him. And also making sure that they weren't upset that Daddy didn't stay longer, or that Dad didn't talk to them- Mm-hmm or that Dad seemed annoyed. Or, "Is Dad mad at me?" And it's like, "No, no, no, no. None of that is true." And so crewing with kids can be an interesting journey. Um, I don't know if any of you have tried it or are thinking about it. Um, I can talk. I don't really have much planned, uh, in this episode with, for that spec- specific thing. But maybe I can create some more content about that if there's enough- interest. Um, but-

kevin 18:25

I- it's very interesting from the runner's side. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, if, if your goal is- Mm in and out, you gotta prep the kids- Yeah that you're going to see Dad, you're gonna high-five him, and then he's on his way. Yeah. And in that case, the kids are not really doing much of the crew process.

angie 18:39

Right. Well, well- And that's- when they were younger, you know, your first race was 2023, and so our girls were, let's see, 11 was our youngest. Um- Mm-hmm she was, 'cause, no, she was 10, because it was in, it was before her birthday that year. Right. So she was 10, and so it was like a 10-year-old and a 13-year-old, um, or a 12-year-old. And so they were much more in the cheerleading role when they were that age, and now that they are older, like your last hundred, they are much more helpful. And I assign roles and, and duties based on what part of the race it is. And so I, I kind of know what they can and can't take on. And as long as I give them a job, then they're good to go. And that's really the, the job of the crew chief. No matter if you're doing this with kids or with other adults, the job of the crew chief is to make sure you have the full picture. You are essentially the CEO of the race. You need to have the full picture, and you need to be able to designate and delegate and just give all the people that are involved their own roles. And maybe that's you. Maybe you are the sole crew of that race, 'cause, like, lots of people have one person that is their crew, that is helping them through that race. But if you have multiple people, it's also your job to manage and delegate to make sure that every single person knows their job.

kevin 19:55

Yeah, no, you, that, that's a brilliant way of putting it. The crew chief is the CEO of the race.

angie 20:00

Yeah.

kevin 20:00

The runner's not.

angie 20:01

No.

kevin 20:01

No. The runner is strapping a number and they're doing their task. No,

angie 20:04

the runner is a talent.

kevin 20:07

But they are 100% not CEO of it.

angie 20:09

No. I-

kevin 20:10

they, their job is not delegating. Maybe you have, like, a pre-race meeting-

angie 20:15

Mm-hmm

kevin 20:15

and they're helping some delegation during that time. But mainly the runner's job is to make sure that they've got a crew chief who is capable of handling the delegation-

angie 20:25

Yeah

kevin 20:25

and not mainly worried about you not dying out on the course.

angie 20:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. So let's talk about where we start. We always start before race day, well in advance. So the planning phase is one of the, the ways that the crew chief needs to really take, uh, take a leadership role here. And I will be honest, I have not always taken this leadership role in the way that I need to. I've left a lot of the planning phase in the past up to Kevin and just kind of expected him to plan a lot of it and then just kind of let me know what he wanted me to do. And moving forward-

kevin 20:59

Which could be fine

angie 21:00

could be fine

kevin 21:01

If we, if we have a better conversation about it. Right. But sometimes you let me do the planning, and I think that you're gonna do the planning, and then it's like two days before- Mm-hmm and we're like, "Oh, no one planned this."

angie 21:11

Yeah. And, and that can leave some holes. And so I think that that needs to be the first part of the conversation, is who's doing the planning? But the crew chief needs to be on top of all of it. And r- so one of the really good things to do is to read the race packet completely. So every race is different. Every race has different rules. Um, just i- in the, the few races that Kevin has done, the first two races were road ultramarathons. So like he mentioned, I was in my car. We had all of his gear in my car, and he was... It was a point-to-point race. Both of them were point-to-point races. So he started in one place and just ran 100 miles down the road until we got to the second, until we got to the finish line. And so I would essentially leapfrog him down the course. So I would drive to a point, I would stop. He would, he would get whatever he needed, and then he, we'd drive and we'd meet him at the next place. And the big part of a race like that is there are very specific crew access points. So I can't just, technically, uh, we're not s- we were not supposed to just stop and help him anywhere along the course. And they were ver- much stricter about this in the Keys. In Daytona, the, it was much more relaxed. Um, so again, you have to know the race. But in the Keys, they were very strict about where we were allowed to meet him and crew him. We could not just, like, meet him anywhere on the side of the road because of the road situation, because a lot of places are these two-lane highways. You can't just pull off and start crewing people and block traffic or cause problems or pull into private patrons' parking lots and, and, and cause a, a huge thing, because there's lots of restaurants and things down there that don't want people in their parking lot, that don't want people taking up parking spaces. And you could get in a lot of trouble, even leading to disqualification from the race and getting kicked out of the race.

kevin 22:59

Yeah, I mean, that's, that is critical that both the runner and r- and crew chief knows the rules-

angie 23:04

Yeah

kevin 23:04

and is fully prepared for anybody else on the, on the crew-

angie 23:08

Mm-hmm

kevin 23:08

to let them know you cannot do that. Right. You are going to get the runner disqualified. Yeah. And if the goal is to get the runner to the finish line, getting the runner disqualified while they're out there- Mm-hmm and th- they're just going down the road, they're doing everything right, and they show up at the next aid station, you don't want to be the crew chief to say, "Hey, uh, you're disqualified 'cause we screwed something up."

angie 23:28

Yeah, no, not a good thing. So it's read the race packet ahead of time, understand where you are allowed to meet your runner and where you are not allowed to meet your runner. Understand where you're allowed to have drop bags, um, what kind of equipment is required. So in some of, in Kevin's road races, he was required to have reflective gear on, um, after sunset, and he, a headlamp after sunset. You know, so any time it was dark, there were certain things. And also, the pacers had to have that same thing too. The pacers had to have reflective gear and headlamps. Um, so understand what kind of equipment is required by the course so that your runner does not get disqualified. And then since we are talking about pacing, it's important to understand pacing rules, because pacers are, depending on the race, are allowed to join at different points in time. Some races, pacers are not allowed to help the runner at all at the, for, for the first half of the race, and they're allowed to jump in at mile 50 or, you know, halfway through the race, wherever that might be, unless you're over a certain age. Like, so I know that the Long Haul, the last race you ran, um, you weren't allowed to have a pacer for the first part of the race unless you were, I think it was over age 60. If you were over a certain age, you were allowed to have a pacer with you the whole time. So there are specific rules about when you can use a pacer, when you can't use a pacer, when the pacer, or whether or not the pacer is allowed to carry gear for the runner, that's called muling, or if the runner has to carry all of his or her gear themselves. Um, so that's really important as well.

kevin 24:57

Yeah, most races you're not allowed to mule. That is-

angie 25:00

Yeah

kevin 25:01

cause it, it's really, it's on the runner to, to run. And-

angie 25:04

Yeah

kevin 25:04

um, I mean, w- let's not get into pacing too much, but that's, that's kind of a big push inside of- Mm-hmm like the, the elite level right now of whether pacers are, like, essentially cheating.

angie 25:14

Yeah.

kevin 25:14

Cause there's a lot of races in Europe that don't allow pacers at all.

angie 25:16

Mm-hmm.

kevin 25:17

And there's a lot of races, most races in the US that allow pacing, and it's just a very different feel-

angie 25:22

Mm-hmm

kevin 25:22

of whether you're heading out kind of solo-

angie 25:25

Yeah

kevin 25:25

on all the running legs, or whether you're allowed to have a friend- Mm-hmm help you along.

angie 25:29

Yeah, which is a great, I mean, it's a huge advantage. Um, and also understand that pacers, for a lot of races, they need to register before the race, um, in order to qualify and be a- eligible to be a pacer. Um, it's also important to know the cutoff t- times at every aid station because, and this is one of the things that honestly I've never had to worry about- Because Kevin is so fast, he's always been at the, at the top of the race. Um, but if you are working with a runner or if you are a runner that thinks that you might be getting close to the cutoff times or you're not sure if you're gonna be able to finish in the cutoff times, understand that there is a cutoff time for the race itself, and then there are also cutoff times along the way. So a lot of these races have, you have to make it to this mile marker or this aid station by this certain time, and if you don't make it, then you're pulled and you're not allowed to continue the race. And so as the crew chief, it is, uh, important for you to be tracking this and making sure that your runner is making it to the aid stations, um, on time.

kevin 26:28

And when you get to an aid station where they will be cutting runners, the other volunteers at the aid station will also be aware of this. Mm-hmm. But most of the cutoff is the time that you need to leave the aid station- Mm-hmm not the time you need to come in.

angie 26:43

Okay.

kevin 26:43

So as crew chief, if your runner shows up and you're like, "Oh, you're good, you're- you've got plenty of time," and that plenty of time is four minutes, that means you have four minutes at that aid station- Yeah and then you have to be out.

angie 26:53

Mm-hmm.

kevin 26:54

It's, it's usually not the time entering, it's usually the time leaving the aid station, so make sure you are aware of what the cutoff actually means.

angie 27:01

Yeah. So after you read the race packet fully and you understand the rules, now it's time to have the pre-race conversation, and this is the most important thing that you will do as the crew and as the runner, because every runner is different. So you have to really understand your runner's preferences. You have to understand the, the why. What is your runner's why, which we talked about in the last episode. Um, there are lots of questions, and I'm gonna list some right now, of things that you are gonna want to talk about And I think that we- I'll- maybe I'll, I'll make another PDF that we can put in the show notes here to download, um, as kind of like a crew chief checklist as well, um, because I think these are really, really important conversations that will save you a ton of stress and questioning on race day as long as you have these quest- or these conversations ahead of time. So number one would be, "What do you want me to say when you, if you tell me that you want to drop out of the race?" It's important to have this conversation first, not at mile 75 when every bone in his body is screaming at him to stop. Emotions are high. Like, that's not when you wanna be making this decision, right? Like, yes, it is still Kevin's decision. Like, when Kevin decided at mile 65 of the Keys 100 that he did not wanna continue on, like, we did have this conversation, and we did have a, a conversation ahead of time, and I could tell based on the answers that he was giving me that, that he was done, right? Like, when we had that conversation earlier when he was talking about it at, like, mile 50, not wanting to continue, there was, there was more leeway. I just... So I kept him, I kept him moving. Like, I kept pushing him on. But at 65, he, I could tell he was done. And the, the answers that he was giving me, and that's, again, kn- knowing your runner well is going to help here, too, to kind of understand their their thought process behind all of this?

kevin 28:55

Yeah. The, there's things that you can say to your runner. You have to have the conversation.

angie 28:59

Mm-hmm.

kevin 29:00

And you have to force the conversation, 'cause your runner, in all likelihood, is not gonna wanna have that.

angie 29:05

Yeah.

kevin 29:05

Like, what, what do you want me to say if you wanna drop? And the runner may, uh, 'cause I know that I was there, of like, "No, no, no, we're not having a conversation about me wanting to drop. I'm not gonna want to drop. I'm making it to the finish line."

angie 29:16

Yeah.

kevin 29:16

No, 100%, you are going to wanna stop doing this thing, and somewhere in there you're gonna wanna stop doing it.

angie 29:23

Mm-hmm.

kevin 29:23

You may then overcome that thought- Mm-hmm before you get to your crew at whatever aid station, but that thought will be in your head somewhere along the line. And so if that thought shows up as you roll into an aid station, you need to make sure that you know what, what you want. Like, is it, is there a song that's gonna get you back? Is there, like, a knowing your why? Are you digging into that? Are, is it okay if they try and crack a joke, or are you gonna hit them? Like, you-

angie 29:49

Yeah

kevin 29:50

you got, you gotta feel this out. And then just because I'm like, "Hey, this is what I want you to say," like, if I told you, you know, just keep things light, give me some jokes, any humor- Mm-hmm and you see me come in, and you're like, "Oh, humor is not gonna be the approach here"- like, you, knowing your runner a little bit is- Yeah is super helpful.

angie 30:09

Yeah. Yeah, and that kind of, like, takes us to the next question of, like, what is... Like, how do you want me to handle it if your mood is bad? Do you want me to push you? Do you want me to give you space? Do you want me to tell you a joke, or is there another way that you want... Like, 'cause in all likelihood, and this is one of the things we talked about last episode, there's going to be points in the runner's training where they hit these low points, where they have bad runs. Maybe they're going out for these long runs or these double back-to-back types of runs, and they're exhausted, and they're tired, and they're in, not in a good mood. Like, what helped you get through those and keep going in those training runs that you found that worked for you, and what did not work for you in your training? Like, what do you think is going to be a good strategy for me to use to help you when you're in a bad mood?

kevin 30:56

Which is why, as a runner, you need to actually do those things- Mm-hmm and then think about what helped you through those low points.

angie 31:02

Yeah.

kevin 31:02

Or think about, "Man, I'm really just gritting my teeth to get through this. I wish I had."

angie 31:08

Mm-hmm.

kevin 31:08

Can your crew chief provide that? Can your crew chief answer that wish?

angie 31:12

Yeah.

kevin 31:12

Because I don't, I think Daytona, was it Daytona that, that you guys showed up with a Slurpee?

angie 31:18

Uh, I think, no, I think that was the Keys.

kevin 31:21

I don't know, but whatever- Or maybe

angie 31:22

Daytona whatever race that

kevin 31:23

was. Yeah. I think that, I'm almost positive that was Daytona. That, that-

angie 31:25

No, I think it was the, I, I'm pretty sure that was the Keys. It, because, well, we'll have to go back and look maybe 'cause I have a video of it. Um, but that- Yeah was like, that was definitely a place where I was like, "He needs, he needs to be cooler. Like, we need to get his body temperature down, and we need to get some calories and some sugar and carbs into him." I was like, "I

kevin 31:42

think a Slurpee- And it was a surprise Yeah. It was an amazing surprise- that it just showed up. Yeah. And it was like, oh, that's, that's phenomenal. Mm-hmm. So you can have these conversations, but sometimes the little surprises of like, yeah, this, this should work, and then, but with the possibility of you showing up with that Slurpee and my being like, "Not a chance." Mm-hmm. "There's zero chance." And then accepting that that's gonna be okay.

angie 32:06

Yeah. And one of the cool things that we did that the, in the Slurpee incident too was we had our daughter, uh, deliver it to you and walk with you while you drank the Slurpee. So you kind of got, s- it, it helped pull you out of your own head, too. Because- Yes you are a very selfless person in general, and so you didn't wanna be a jackass to your, like, 13-year-old daughter that was there. And so you were then kind of cracking jokes and making the mood lighter. So just her being there, giving you this Slurpee, and walking with you while you drank it was able to lighten your mood as well.

kevin 32:41

Yeah, and I mean, I have run my best anytime that I say I stay happy and light and joking- Mm-hmm.

angie 32:48

Yeah

kevin 32:49

and any aid station, anytime on these, these multi-loop courses where- Mm you're seeing other runners at different legs on their loops and whatnot, I'm usually a very kind person, and then sometimes I'm just grumpy when I roll into aid station- Yeah with you. Because- Well,

angie 33:04

because I'm the safe space.

kevin 33:05

Yeah.

angie 33:06

Yeah. Like, y- you know I'm gonna be able to take it, and that it's okay. That's the, I mean, I guess that jumps to, like, one of the other things which I think have, I have somewhere else down lower in our document, which is, like, don't take it personally, right? Like, understand that whatever happens on race day is not about you as the crew chief 'cause, but that's, that's more w- when we talk about race day. Okay, going back to our pre-race conversation, okay? What do you want me to say if you're in a bad mood? What do you want me to say if you wanna drop out of the race? What are your non-negotiables at every aid station, right? Like, w- is there, are there certain things? So, like, Kevin, every time he came to the aid station, he would want us to refill the wa- we would refill his water bottle with scr- with Scratch. We would put a new energy Chews in his handheld. Like, there were certain things that we just did every time we saw him. We took, we would take his trash, ex- et cetera, right? And so I think having that plan, understanding that the plan is always flexible. Like, the plan n- you never know what's gonna happen on race day, so the plan is always flexible. But there needs to be some things, like, if there are any non-negotiables. Like, so sunscreen was one. You, you know, during this part of the day and this part of the day, like, we are putting sunscreen on you. It doesn't matter if you don't want it. That's a non- Yeah a non-negotiable, right? Because burning, getting a sunburn in the middle of a hundred-mile race is not a good idea, and that is going to make your body be working even harder. Terrible idea, right? Um- Another good, another good question, uh, what foods do you know that you can tolerate es- like, deep into a race, right? 'Cause the, what you're able to tolerate and eat at the beginning of a race is not going to likely be the same when you're at mile 80 or 90 of the race. So, like, what have you practiced in your training that would maybe be better at the beginning of the race, and then what do you know that, even if I don't wanna eat anything, I can still take this thing down?

kevin 34:52

Yeah, 'cause ultimately you have to keep getting calories in.

angie 34:55

Mm-hmm.

kevin 34:55

And if you're like, "All right, I don't wanna do anything," and you're like, "Okay, then just eat this."

angie 34:59

Mm-hmm.

kevin 35:00

And it's, it's that matter-of-fact from the crew- Yep from your crew chief-

angie 35:03

Yep

kevin 35:04

is if you're coming in with, "I can't eat anything," the crew chief needs to be like, "Okay, then your option is eating this."

angie 35:09

Mm-hmm.

kevin 35:10

And there's no thinking involved in that. Right. That's why that question's super important.

angie 35:13

Yep. Um- Um, what does a good aid station stop look like for you? Do you wanna- Mm-hmm be fast in and out? Do you need a few minutes? Do you wanna sit down? Do you wanna s- like, sit, like, on the ground and do some stretching? Like, what does that aid station stop look like?

kevin 35:29

Yeah. Like, 'cause, it, which I think is connected to the next one, what mood are you trying to carry through the day?

angie 35:34

Mm-hmm.

kevin 35:35

Like, it's not gonna be perfectly level, but I think that the less crazy highs and crazy lows you can have- Yeah the better. Some people live off the hype. Like, I've seen people come into aid stations- Mm-hmm and their crew has, like, music blasted- Yeah and everybody's cheering and high-fives and whatnot. Mm-hmm. Some people want that. Mm-hmm. Other people, you come in and you get that, and then you have to leave and you don't see more crew stuff for another hour, two hours, three hours.

angie 36:03

Yeah.

kevin 36:03

You're immediately gonna fall off that cliff of emotional high. Mm-hmm. So you gotta decide, like, what is it that you want? Like, do you want your crew hyping you up and then you're gonna roll into some, like, pump-up music and keep the high going, or do you want that steady, even keel from your crew? Mm-hmm. You gotta have that conversation ahead of time.

angie 36:20

Yeah. And most of the time for us, it's, it's pretty even. Like, Kevin comes, he rolls in and we're like, "Yay, you did another loop." Or, you know, it's like, there's a l- a mini celebration, but it's not like, "Oh, yeah. Heck, yeah." But there's some of those guys that that I've seen at the aid stations that are like, "Yeah! Da, da, da, da." You know, like, they're all that bro energy, um, which is not really us.

kevin 36:41

It's, it's not really me. Like, I could do it, but the amount of effort to bring that energy- Yeah, no would just wreck me for the next loop.

angie 36:49

Right. Exactly. Um, what kinds of words or music or people give you energy when you're at a low point? That's a great question to ask, because there's going to be low points in the race. What is the best way that your runner wants to handle those things? Like, Kevin had specific songs that he liked to listen to when he was kind of getting to a low point. There were some loops that he wanted his headphones and some loops he did not want his headphones. He did not want that extra thing on his head, right? So there were o- there were options for him.

kevin 37:20

Yeah. And then these questions all ultimately kind of build to the, the crew document.

angie 37:27

Mm-hmm.

kevin 37:28

Like, the, it, it covers everything. And as you pointed out it should be printed, and every member of the crew needs to know what is happening with this. Mm-hmm. You might want a couple of versions of this because while crewing, things can spill, so you might want some. You might want some multiple documents of this. And it has the answers to all the questions-

angie 37:47

Mm-hmm

kevin 37:48

so that you know all the basic found- foundations, but it also has what's going to happen, where are the aid stations all the time. Everything that we've- Yeah talked about is on here.

angie 37:57

Mm-hmm. So things that would be included in this, um, should include responsibilities by person, broken down if there are multiple people in the crew. You want to know what everyone's responsible for. Aid station locations and access notes. The runner's target splits, like what is the time that they're trying to get to every single aid station, and then of course the cutoff times that they have to be at those aid stations by. Um, nutrition plan. You know, what do they wanna eat leg by leg, 'cause you should really try to plan out, not try to, you should plan out your nutrition ahead of time. Like we had in t- in Kevin's, uh, race plan, we knew he was gonna take fig bars at this point and Skratch Chews at this point. And then we also had the plan, and then we also had, "Okay, well, if that sounds terrible, we're gonna default to this." So we had options to replace some of those things if he just was not feeling those things. Um, the gear plan leg by leg. When do they wanna change socks? When do they wanna ch- change shoes or shorts or shirts? Like, do they wanna change their clothes at all, um, or not if they have to? If there are any pacer assignments, start points, uh, contact information for every crew member. The thing that you have to understand, and the reason we say to print this, is depending on the race, there are a lot of these races, a lot of ultra-marathons are, like, out in the middle of parks or in mountains where there's terrible cell service. I know that The Long Haul that Kevin did, there are some places I was, like, walking around trying to find some cell service because I was trying to p- post upda- updates on Instagram, which everyone loved. Um, but it was hard to find service, whereas for Daytona and the Keys, it was much easier 'cause I was just driving down the road. So if I didn't have good service in one location, I would just drive a little bit, and then I could find service again. And so it's important to have things either downloaded on your phone or printed out so that you don't have to worry about any sort of service issues or technology issues along the way.

kevin 39:50

All right, and then that crew document includes the roles. So let's go through this very carefully, 'cause every crew member needs a role.

angie 39:57

Mm-hmm.

kevin 39:57

Everybody gets a job. So who's in charge of nutrition? Who's making sure at every stop that, one, 'cause you guys are clearing out my trash. Mm-hmm. So you're, you know how much I've taken in, and you know how much you're putting back on me.

angie 40:11

Yeah.

kevin 40:11

Did I eat anything else along the way? Mm-hmm. Someone has to generally keep track of this because my-

angie 40:16

And someone has to ask the question. Like, that was one of the things I told our girls. Like, "Ask Dad this." Like, "Ask Dad this." Like, "Make sure you get this from Dad." The, and I had specific questions that each girl had to do.

kevin 40:29

Yeah, so very, very clear questions that have very, very clear answers. Mm-hmm. Who's tracking gear? Who's in charge of keeping track of the cutoffs?

angie 40:36

Yeah.

kevin 40:37

Um, who, who is pacing? Is someone pacing? Mm-hmm. At what point do they start? Do they need to get warmed up? Yeah. Like, something to keep in mind.

angie 40:46

Mm-hmm.

kevin 40:46

Um, i- um- Is there something that the runner is responsible for? Hmm. Okay? So for instance, if, if I start chafing, that is not the responsibility of you or our kids- to take care of.

angie 41:03

That is not. It is my job to hand you the chafing- Yes the anti-chafing stick, and, and put up a, put up a, a wall of towel so that you can do whatever you need to do in a private- Right s- area.

kevin 41:17

But it might be somebody's job, because the last thing that I need to do is roll into the aid station, knock off all the boxes, and then head out of aid station and be like, "Oh, I forgot to put more anti-chafing stuff- Mm-hmm all over me." Yeah. So someone should ask that question-

angie 41:31

Yep

kevin 41:31

do, do you need this? Even if that's entirely my responsibility of applying- Mm-hmm someone needs to ask the question to make sure that everything gets taken care of that- Yeah can be done at an aid station.

angie 41:41

Yeah, and so one of the things that we did is we had essentially a little mini checklist that we used every time we saw Kevin. And so it was like sunscreen, anti-chafing, water, scratch. Like, we had a, a mini checklist, and then we made sure we hit all of those things. Those were the non-negotiables to at least ask or offer, and then said, "Okay, is there anything else you need?" Right? Like, 'cause then Kevin kind of came up with things along the way, too, of, "Hey, I need this. Make sure you have this the next time I get back so that it's ready for me to go." 'Cause, like, I forget specifically, but I remember that there were definitely things like that where you said, "Have this." I think, like, your headphones. Like, "Have my headphones ready, 'cause I'm, I'm gonna want them on the next loop," or, "Have the, make sure that the headlight is charged," or whatever it was.

kevin 42:26

Yeah, 'cause I, I don't know why, but the head- headphones drive me nuts. Eventually they feel like they're just crushing my skull-

angie 42:32

Mm-hmm

kevin 42:32

and I have to have them off for a loop. Yeah. And if I have them off, you might as well get them charging to make sure- Mm-hmm they don't die partway through. Right. Like, it's just, it's a, it's a useful thing.

angie 42:40

Yeah. So make sure everybody has a role. Make sure everybody's clear on their role, and if you are the only one crewing it, then all of it's up to you, so that makes it a little bit easier, because you don't have to delegate or assign roles to anybody. You're just the one that's responsible for all of them. Let's talk about what to pack, all right? Because packing is one of the most important things that you will do that is going to lead to success for the runner, and if you are missing things, if you are under-packed, that could potentially lead to the race ending for the runner. And I really thank God that the first couple of races with Kevin were road races, where, 'cause especially that second one, oh, my God, the n- Oh, the second one the number of times I stopped at Publix, which is our grocery store down here- In Florida, the number of times we stopped to get various supplies and things that I had forgotten along the way, um, we, we visited I wanna say at least seven Publixes along that road. And most of the time, like, sometimes it was for us also, and, and part of that is because I knew I didn't have to do all of the pre-planning and pre-packing, especially for us, because we were gonna be driving down the road. So I knew that for our crew meals, I could stop and go, we can get subs at Publix or whatever it was that we wanted to get for lunch. Um, and then luckily, we, there was some things that we had forgotten that we were able to then purchase, um, as well. But if you're out in the mountains or if you're in a place where you're not a- able to, like, leave and come back, it's packing and having a really, really extensive packing list and equipment and gear is very critical. And, um, a lot of that, like the crew packet, the, the race packet will often give you a lot of suggestions, and a lot of this is you're gonna also learn along the way as you continue to do races of, like, what you like, what you don't like, what you need, you know, m- what do you need to make sure you have on-hand. So I'm gonna go over-

kevin 44:37

I'll also point out, like, this is critical-

angie 44:39

Yeah

kevin 44:39

but in all likelihood, if there's anybody else who's, who is crewing-

angie 44:43

True

kevin 44:44

around you, if you don't have it, you can ask, and they will most likely very, very willingly share. Yes. It is a wonderful community of people who want to help- Mm-hmm other people get to the finish line.

angie 44:54

I agree. I, I agree with that. And, like, you do get to kinda know the people around you. It depend on what kind of race you're in because, I mean, the first one, no, because you're just driving down the road, so I didn't really get to know anybody. But the last couple of races w- the setup for the long haul is we basically parked in a parking lot and, or yeah, in a, in a parking lot, and, um, just crewed out of the car, and then there were other people parked around us. And, um, we would chat with them, either the crew or the runners as they came through, too. Um, so it was fun. And, and like Kevin said, the, it's an ultra, the ultra running community is a fantastic community of people. So- Some essential categories to think about for you and your runner. Um, nutrition, okay? You wanna make sure that you are calculating the calories needed based on pace, based on intake goals, and also giving yourself a buffer of about 20%. You wanna pack a wide variety, um, make sure that they've trained with all of these things. Um, taste preferences change dramatically throughout the race. Like, Kevin had a certain thing planned, and, like, he would come into the, the aid station, I'd be like, "Here, have this." And he's like, "No, that sounds disgusting. I think I'll throw up if I eat that." I'm like, "Okay." So then we- you have to have backups. So always have backups. Um, and you wanna make sure that also, like, if they have leftover food when they get into your aid station, that's, you have to be very, very aware of that, 'cause that means that they're probably not taking in enough calories based on what you've calculated.

kevin 46:23

Yeah, if, if they come back, unless they're, like, ahead of pace, if you're- Mm-hmm eating based off of time, which is my recommendation, rather than eating based off of distance covered- Yeah 'cause you're, that's gonna change.

angie 46:34

Mm-hmm.

kevin 46:34

But you should be eating on a, on a regular rhythm, um- Time-wise just so that you don't, just so you don't forget to eat.

angie 46:39

Mm-hmm.

kevin 46:40

Like, every 20 minutes, every 30 minutes, you're taking something in to make sure that you're doing it.

angie 46:44

Mm-hmm.

kevin 46:45

If you come back, it's, unless you are way ahead of schedule, you should be out of food. Like, that's how that, that's how it works.

angie 46:52

Yeah. Um, hydration, okay? Water, electrolytes, backup vest or water bottles. Like, what do they wanna use? Kevin has, has tried, um, the vest, like the, having the bladder on his back. He prefers the handheld water bottle because there's less weight, there's less things that he have to ca- has to carry. But again, that's gonna base, be based also on How frequently they're coming back and how often they're at aid stations. Do they, are they gonna have enough water and electrolytes and things? It, based on, you know, the layout of the course.

kevin 47:22

Yeah, 100%. Mm-hmm. 'Cause the, the one that I've done the last two years-

angie 47:26

Mm-hmm

kevin 47:26

it's a 16-mile loop, but there are aid stations along the way.

angie 47:31

Mm-hmm.

kevin 47:31

So I'm always, like, five miles away from the next aid station.

angie 47:35

Yeah.

kevin 47:35

So a handheld water bottle that can get refilled every five miles-

angie 47:38

Mm-hmm

kevin 47:39

is going to work for me. Mm-hmm. That might not work for everybody. Like-

angie 47:42

Yeah

kevin 47:42

there are other, there were plenty of runners in that race who had a vest carrying- Yeah carrying a water bottle- I would say- on their back

angie 47:48

most people had some- something, some sort of vest on.

kevin 47:51

Yeah.

angie 47:52

Um, okay, clothing. You wanna make sure that you have all the clothing that your runner needs. You wanna make sure you have layers in case there's weird temperature swings, especially if they're running in the mountains, because the mou- the temperatures at the top of the mountains are gonna be different than the valleys. Um, there can be major temperature swings throughout the race. There was, uh, one of the races Kevin started, it was, like, in the 40s, I think, the 30s or the 40s, um, at the beginning of the race when it was dark, and then it got all the way up into, like, the high 70s, low 80s, and then back down at night. And so, like, there's temperature swings that you have to be able to, uh, account for, so you need to have layers. You need to have, uh, rain gear. You wanna have dry clothing, dry socks. Um, going into footwear, always make sure you have a backup pair of shoes at minimum Uh, multiple pairs of socks. In wet conditions especially, you have to change, f- frequent sock changes are critical because if you, if the feet just stay wet, that can lead to major problems, things like trench foot, um, it, which is not a condition that you wanna have. Um, so making sure that, that you're always taking care of your feet. And we have, um, done a previous episode, I'm gonna have to look up what episode number it was, all about foot care for runners. We had an excellent physical therapist and foot care specialist on the podcast, um, that talked all about foot care. That's really very, very important as an ultra runner. I

kevin 49:15

mean, this goes to just knowing the, the course. Mm-hmm. Like, are you going to have to cross rivers?

angie 49:20

Yeah.

kevin 49:20

Because there are plenty of trail races that you will have to run through a river.

angie 49:25

Mm-hmm.

kevin 49:25

And you have to plan for that.

angie 49:27

Yeah. Like,

kevin 49:27

after you do that, do you even get to see a crew? How many more miles do you have to go-

angie 49:32

Mm-hmm

kevin 49:32

in your, complete soaked to the bone before you could possibly change your crew? Right. Like, do you wanna tape up your toes? Because if you tape it, it c- keeps stuff from getting in. It might prevent some blisters, but water can't really come off if you've taped yourself with the toes. Mm-hmm. So, you gotta decide what's going to work best for you, and some of it is, unfortunately, trial and error. That's- Mm-hmm

angie 49:54

that's how the ultra works.

kevin 49:54

Yeah. It's, you might have an ultra that your feet get, uh, really messed up.

angie 49:57

Right. Um, lighting, you wanna make sure you have headlamps, enough batteries, backup lights for overnight. Is it a chargeable headlamp? Is it a battery-operated one? Uh, reflective gear, you wanna make sure you've got that if it's necessary. Um, a- any sort of body maintenance thing, so anti-chafe cream or balm, blister kits, medical tape, pain relief sprays, um, those have been very helpful. Muscle balm, sunscreen, bug spray, cooling spray, ice, ice bandanas, like, all of these things that, uh, are necessary to help keep the runner's body in, in good shape.

kevin 50:32

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned pain relief. Let's just briefly say you should probably not take Advil in the middle of the race. It's-

angie 50:37

Yeah

kevin 50:37

if you're out there running for hours upon hours in the heat, that's not a good combo with the kidneys.

angie 50:41

Yeah, I m- I meant topical pain relief. Um, so- Topical

kevin 50:44

pain relief is a winner

angie 50:45

pain sprays. Like, there's actual, there's cooling sprays, there's pain relief sprays. Um, so that- There's

kevin 50:52

tons of options.

angie 50:52

Yeah. Lot, lots of different options there. So yeah, I, I'm glad you pointed that out. I, I didn't mean, like, Advil or Tylenol or things like that, 'cause that is typically n- you want to try to avoid that. Um, but-

kevin 51:02

Generally frowned on.

angie 51:03

Yeah. But medications that you might want, pills that you might want on hand, antacids. Okay? Those are big ones, and those, those... That's one of the stops that I definitely had to make to g- for Kevin, um, like Tums or Beano, like that anti-gas medication, because he's eating and he's running and, uh, all these things are happening, and, like, there was a point where he was, like, in a lot of pain because he had a lot of gas. Um, so the gas prevention is really, really, was, uh, important for, for you.

kevin 51:28

Yeah. But I mean, any sort of, any stomach medication, you're gonna want all sorts of varieties of stomach meds. Yep. I don't think there's a race yet that I've not-

angie 51:36

Pepto-Bismol

kevin 51:37

taken in Pepto-Bismol. Yeah. I don't think that I've not taken Pepto in a-

angie 51:41

Yeah

kevin 51:41

single race yet.

angie 51:42

Yeah, so we've had, like, Pepto, we've had Beano. I got Tums. Like, we had, I had multiple options for, for Kevin depe- depending on what kind of thing he was going through. You have, you want to definitely have basic first aid, like Band-Aids, Kinesio Tape, foot care items. Um, you want to plan for your, your runner to be nauseous. Like, if you want to have some sort of anti-nausea medication. Um, you want to plan, you know, if your runner falls down and scrapes himself, is, you have to be able to clean that up. Um, if they get blisters, you have to be able to help learn how, you know, f- help try to, uh, help fix that. You know? So, like, all these things are, um, important to have on hand. And again, there, a lot of the aid stations for these races will have people there that are Very well-equipped to help out if you don't know how to do these things. Um, but you don't wanna plan on that. You don't wanna depend on that. You wanna have everything that you possibly can just in case.

kevin 52:36

Yeah, I mean, where, in the last few races where you guys have been parked, there has not been, like, an official aid station right there.

angie 52:43

Mm-hmm.

kevin 52:43

Like, it was another, I don't know, mile down the road. Like, if I had a serious medical issue, I would've gone to the next aid station, and they had medical people on, on course. Yeah. And most ultras are going to have medical people on course. Yeah. But it's good to have basic first aid kit. Like, make su- plan on your runner throwing up and falling down and hurting themselves.

angie 53:06

Mm-hmm.

kevin 53:07

Hope that they don't- Yeah but plan on that.

angie 53:09

Right, exactly. Like,

kevin 53:10

have the preparation for it.

angie 53:11

Right, exactly. And then for the crew, oh, comfort items for the, um, for the runner as well, things like a toothbrush, baby wipes, body wipes. There's, like, there's, like- But you

kevin 53:21

cannot have too many baby wipes

angie 53:22

man wipes nowadays, right? Um- That's

kevin 53:25

because they don't- Toilet- wanna sell baby wipes to men.

angie 53:27

Yeah. Toilet paper, paper towels, mints, gum to refre- You know, I know Courtney Dauwalter's one of the best ultra runner, uh, ultra running women, um, out in the sport right now, and q- quite, quite honestly, ever. Um, she likes to brush her teeth at every aid station, you know, just because she said it, it kind of freshens her up and, and gets her going. Um- When you're taking in a lot of sweet gels along the way, um, brushing your teeth is probably a really good thing. I've offered Kevin, he's never wanted to do it before. Um, but I think that depending on your runner, you might want to.

kevin 53:58

Yeah, she uses the, uh, the toothbrushes that you just put water on them. They already have- Mm-hmm the toothpaste in it, and-

angie 54:02

Yeah

kevin 54:03

does a little swish around and off she goes.

angie 54:05

Yeah, exactly. And then for the crew, you know, you have to pack your own stuff. Like, you- all that stuff I just talked about was for the runner. So as a crew, like, you have to have your own survival as well. You need to have your own food, your own layers, phone chargers, uh, a map, cash, first aid. Like, there's gonna be downtime that you have in between stations. Um, and you need to be able to take care of yourself so that you can take care of your runner. Like, if you are hungry or cold or exhausted, you're not gonna be a very good crew chief. And so it's really important that you remember to also take care of your runner. Like, and like Kevin said, depending on what race we've been in, like, there was in, in the last race, we were at a, a parking lot where we were able to leave and come back. And so we sent him off on the race, and then the girls and I went and got Starbucks because we could. And we had at least four hour- like, we had three or four hours until Kevin got back. So we had the ability to go do that. So sometimes you, you can do those types of things. Other times, based on the race that you're doing, you might not have that option.

kevin 55:05

Yeah, I mean, there are some races where the, the aid station where you have to get to-

angie 55:10

Mm-hmm

kevin 55:11

involves, like, driving down a dirt road- Yeah and then parking here, and then walking, like, a mile and a half through a trail yourself.

angie 55:18

Right.

kevin 55:18

So then, then as the crew, you're carrying a lot of stuff-

angie 55:23

Mm-hmm

kevin 55:23

that you, you potentially will then just have to carry back to the car. Yeah. You have to be prepared for all of these situations.

angie 55:30

Yep. Um, so the next thing that I kinda wanna talk about is, is that pit stop. You know, the aid station. When you are running your own aid station and you are the one that's crewing your runner, you wanna treat it like that F1 pit stop. So you have to use everything we just talked about, all the preparation, all the conversations. Okay, now what is actually happening on race day? It is your job to make sure your runner has everything that they need to start the race, including their bib, including their thing around their ankle if they use that. Like, they've got all different trackers, and there was actually one, um, one race where Kevin came in, his first long haul I think, right? Yep. Um, you came in to our aid station after, after his first loop, and he took off the, there was, like, an ankle band that he had to wear in order for the timing mat to, to track him. And he took it off in order to, to put on- I think it's leg sleeves put leg sleeves on, right? Um, I think you put leg sleeves on or took them off e- either way, and we forgot to put that back on. So that's one of the, that's, that was my job as crew chief, was to g- make sure that that got back on him. Um, so you wanna make sure that you kind of know- All the things. So before the runner heads out on the race, you- before the runner gets back to you, it's your job to kind of get prepared. Um, so use live tracking is, if possible. A lot of races have, uh, live tracking options where maybe you might not be able to track them step by step throughout the race, but they're gonna hit various checkpoints along the way. That's always been, um, what we've experienced in the last couple of races is the, the, the checkpoints. Um, and so you have to make sure that you are at the aid station location, wherever you're going to be crewing him or her, uh, before them. Arrive early. Make sure that everything is staged. So we were cr- we would always crew Kevin out of, out of our car, and so I would pop the back of the car. I have everything laid out. We had our, um, we ha- I have like a little, like a shower caddy is one of the things that I use. So it was, we had the shower caddy, and that was all the things that we needed for the next a- aid stop, right? And so I would take all the different containers, and I had everything labeled. Um, uh, plastic bins are your best friend. Make sure that you get lots of plastic bins, um, and label them all so that you have, like, clothing in one bin. You have the first aid supplies in another bin. You know where everything is. And then what I do ahead of time before Kevin gets back to me is I take everything that I might need, um, for that aid station, and I put it into the shower caddy so that I have my little checklist. And then of course, if he needs something that I wasn't expecting, I can always go, and since I have labels on everything, I know where everything is

kevin 58:05

Yeah, so then when your runner rolls in- Mm-hmm there should be a planned order of operations.

angie 58:10

Order of operations

kevin 58:11

Again, like think of the pit stop. There is a reason why the guy immediately comes out and starts throwing gas in the tank- Mm-hmm before anybody else starts moving. That is a big, heavy tube, and it's gotta be there because it's the slowest process, and then the guy comes out and starts doing the tires. Yeah. You do them in the wrong order, and someone's getting gasoline poured all over them. So you need an order of operations that works. Mm-hmm. One, hydration. Immediately get fluids into the runner's hands.

angie 58:35

Mm-hmm.

kevin 58:35

And then get food into them. Hand it to them. This is what you are going to eat right now. Mm-hmm. Trash is coming out of them. New nutrition is coming into them. Yeah. Before anything else happens, before you even start chatting with the runner, get, uh, hydration into them and start loading their nutrition.

angie 58:52

Mm-hmm.

kevin 58:53

And then to me, and ideally you have like a couple of people in your crew, at this point, you can start listening to the runner, 'cause it's possible that they've been waiting an hour to tell you something.

angie 59:04

Yeah.

kevin 59:04

That they need this thing. That something- Mm is going wrong. That something needs to get switched out.

angie 59:08

Yeah.

kevin 59:09

So you need to make sure that you've got that, but before anything happens, they need to start the rehydration. Um- Yes to me, that's the order.

angie 59:16

Yeah, for sure, because get them, getting them the food and the water that they need or the hydration that they need in the aid station is important. Because Kevin, one of the things that we would do with him is we learned from his first race that he needs real wa- just regular water without electrolytes also, and so he would come, but he wanted to take electrolyte, you know, a sports drink with him in his handheld whenever he went out because he wanted the calories and ele- and the electrolytes. And so when he got into the aid station, we would have him pound a regular water first. So he, he could drink as much water while he was there with us, and then there were certain times, like, um, a protein shake was one of the things that he has had in the last couple of races. And so he would drink that whole protein shake while he was there in the aid station with us because he didn't want to take that with him. And so, like, get that to him as, as quickly as possible so that he has a, a- as much time as possible to take that down while you're kind of doing other things. Um, so food is first. Check in with the runner, so I always did a body check. I'm like, "How are you feeling? How are your feet?" You know, like we did kind of like a body check from head to toe, uh, body scan to see how he was doing. Um, a gear check to see if he need- like check the headlamp, check the, does he want the vest, does he want the handheld? Um, does he need a clothing change, depending on what point in the race he is? The feet, you know, do you wanna change your shoes? Do you wanna change your sh- your socks? Like how is everything going there? Um, and then get him out the door. You know, like have that checklist where you're getting the food, the hydration, the body check-in. Uh, mobility is definitely gonna be the, the new thing that we're doing. I suggested it last time, but he had never practiced it. He didn't wanna do it last time, but he is on board with me this time, right, Kev? Yes, I am. Like m- getting that, getting him in the aid station and doing his mobility exercises, getting those hips opened up, any stretching that he might need to do. Um, and then getting, getting him out and on his way

kevin 1:01:06

Yeah. Um, I mean, it's, it's a fairly concise list.

angie 1:01:10

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:01:10

And you may not have seen this person for a while, and they're doing this amazing run through the mountains or whatnot, so you probably want to ask them questions about what just happened.

angie 1:01:20

Absolutely.

kevin 1:01:21

You don't have time for that.

angie 1:01:22

No.

kevin 1:01:22

You don't have time for that. No one has energy for that. So things not to do, um, one, chat about what just went on.

angie 1:01:28

Yeah.

kevin 1:01:29

Like, the only reason you're asking them about what just happened is in case they need to change gear, to change shoes, to change a shirt. Yeah. That's the only reason you're asking. Like, that's, that's all it is.

angie 1:01:39

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:01:39

Um, another big one, don't ask open-ended questions.

angie 1:01:44

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:01:44

What do you feel like eating?" is not a good idea. No. Because we already covered nutrition. You've got a lot of options available, but you're giving them the go-to options.

angie 1:01:54

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:01:54

And then if, if I'm like, "Oh, no, I can't have that," you can give me a binary.

angie 1:01:59

Yeah.

kevin 1:01:59

Do you want this or that?" The yes

angie 1:02:01

or

kevin 1:02:01

no. Yeah.

angie 1:02:01

Sweet or salty is usually a good way to, that I like to start. You know, like, "What do you feel like? Do you want sweet or salty?" And you're like, "Salty, for sure." I've said, "Okay, potato chips or pretzels?" You know, like, so the, the, it's two options, so he can just tell me in that moment what sounds like the, the most palatable option.

kevin 1:02:18

Right, because I, I don't have a lot of brain capacity, but if it's a, if it's just this or that. Mm-hmm. By this point, your guard is down, so you don't really have to think about it. Mm-hmm. It's really just a reflex, and you can't reflex on an open-ended question.

angie 1:02:33

Yeah.

kevin 1:02:33

You can have a reflex answer on, on a- Mm-hmm either/or.

angie 1:02:36

Yeah. Um, don't let them sit too long because, you know, and this is one of the things that I've learned along the way, 'cause I've wanted Kevin to just, like, sit and chat with us before. You know, like, "We haven't seen you." And it's like, "No, that's, that's not what this is for, Ang." Um, so, and, uh, he- he's also made the point that if I sit too long, I can't get, I'm definitely not gonna wanna get back up. And plus, you have to remember phys- physically speaking, when he sits too long, everything stiffens up. So you wanna try to keep him moving. That's one of the things he's said to me every single race he's ever done is like, "I gotta keep moving. I gotta keep moving." I'm just like, "Calm down. Like, you don't need like..." And he's, like, pacing back and forth, and I'm like, okay. It's, uh, like, I've learned this about him now. I'm not gonna fight it. Um, but also just help to, help to reduce the stress, right? Like, and tr- don't share any problems, crew drama. I never told him what was going on with the kids, even though they were fighting the whole time that, you know, that he was out running. Like, I'm not gonna share any of that with him 'cause he needs to just keep going. He doesn't need more stress. You can share that

kevin 1:03:35

two days from now.

angie 1:03:36

Totally. Like, "Oh, wait till you hear this, what was happening," you know? Then, um, then yes, uh, share it. He'll, he'll be able to share what he was experiencing with you, and you, what you w- were experiencing with him, and it's fantastic. Um, but yeah, don't, don't share or don't add stress. Like, the whole goal of the crew chief and the pit stop is to decrease any stress, minimize the amount of decisions that they have to make, get them fed, get them hydrated, and, and get them on, on, on his way.

kevin 1:04:02

Yeah. It's wonderful that you're there. I mean, I love that you as my, my wife are- your crew chief. Yeah Some people just bring like a best friend.

angie 1:04:08

Totally.

kevin 1:04:08

It's, it's great that you have people who care about you-

angie 1:04:12

Mm-hmm

kevin 1:04:12

as, as your aid station.

angie 1:04:14

Yeah.

kevin 1:04:14

But I do really well at the aid stations that are out in the middle of the woods also that they are complete strangers.

angie 1:04:20

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:04:20

Because they have zero desire- Yeah to have a lengthy conversation with me.

angie 1:04:24

Well, and some people- It's- even have total strangers crew their race, which I think is so amazing. Like, not just at the aid stations. Like, there are- Yeah people that will just volunteer to crew people that they d- totally don't know.

kevin 1:04:35

Yeah, I know. It's a great community,

angie 1:04:36

isn't it? It is. It really is amazing. Yeah. Um, so that's how you wanna treat any aid station. You know, treat it like a pit stop. Have your checklist. Make sure you check all of those things, um, with your runner before y- they head out on their way. Um, okay. The next really big piece that I wanna talk about is the psychological game, and I know that we're already over an hour here, um, into this episode, so I'm gonna keep it shorter than I probably want to, but- I

kevin 1:05:02

think we've covered some of this already, huh?

angie 1:05:03

We, we have. Um, the biggest thing that I will say is don't take anything personally because that was definitely a, a lesson that I needed to learn throughout the process 'cause it's like, "Oh, is he, is he mad at me?" Like, I don't need to bring marital drama into this. Like, you know, or friend drama. Like, he was going through some crazy physical challenges and, and dealing with his own demons. Like, that has nothing to do with me. So don't take anything personally. Your runner will not be themselves. Sleep deprivation, pain, calorie deficits, hours of physical stress. Like, this is going to produce a person that you might not recognize. Like, Kevin was really... Like, I was making a joke. He was really grumpy in the last race, more than normal, and I, and we talked about that afterwards. Um, but there was always, in the previous three races, around that halfway mo- point, he was just grumpy. He was, like, annoyed and irritable. And then when I saw him like 10 miles later, he was like happy-go-lucky again, right? And so it's kind of fun and, and I've decided to kind of see it as a little bit of entertainment. It's like, which Kevin do we get now, you know? Like, but it's not personal. Like, he wasn't mad at me. Like, nothing was going on. There was just a lot of other stuff. And understand that your runner might be irrational or angry or sad or weepy or withdrawn or just bizarrely euphoric and in a place that you don't really understand, right? So none of that, like, it's just important to kind of keep a, a, a, a, a separation, right? And understand that your runner's not gonna be themselves. Um, and as fatigue accumulates- Decision-making also goes down. And so it's then becomes more of my job as the crew chief to make more decisions for him.

kevin 1:06:48

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, the runner is capable of a lot of decisions early on- Yeah and this is why you have the pre-race conversation.

angie 1:06:54

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:06:54

Because it's your job to make decisions that we've already talked about. Mm. These are the decisions that likely need to get made later in the race.

angie 1:07:02

Yeah.

kevin 1:07:02

And then I need you to help make those, those decisions for me.

angie 1:07:05

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:07:06

Um, when your runner's coming in in whatever mood it is, don't try to lean into it. Like, if they come in super happy, don't try to get them happier.

angie 1:07:16

Yeah.

kevin 1:07:16

If they come in super angry, don't just let them wallow in anger-

angie 1:07:21

Yeah

kevin 1:07:21

but don't, like, double down on it either.

angie 1:07:23

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:07:23

If they're sad, don't help them be, like, dig deeper into the pit of sadness.

angie 1:07:28

Yeah.

kevin 1:07:28

I think to me, the, the crew needs to just sort of stay midline- Mm-hmm and let the runner be a little bit higher or lower-

angie 1:07:36

Mm-hmm

kevin 1:07:37

but the crew kind of helps them sort of level everything out- Yeah so that their emotions aren't going on quite as much of a rollercoaster, 'cause they're alr- they are. Yeah. They're gonna go on a rollercoaster anymore.

angie 1:07:46

Yeah.

kevin 1:07:47

So encouraging the high to get higher or a low to get lower is not helpful.

angie 1:07:51

Mm-mm. No, you wanna j- try to bring him back to neutral is, is my job, is, like, helping with the emotional regulations, validating whatever he's experiencing, but also just, like, being like, "Okay." Like, there'd be, be times where Kevin would come in and he'd be, like, grumpy and angry and irritable. I'd be like, "Okay, that's fine. Tell me about this. Tell me about this." Like, keeping that, like, a, a calm tone of voice, right? So it's h- my body language, my tone of voice. Like, all of that is very important so that he knows that we're good here. Like, you can be whatever, however you need to be right now. I'm good. We're good. We're gonna do what we need to do, and we're gonna get you on your way, right? Because- Yeah you don't wanna be adding to, to his stress at all.

kevin 1:08:30

It's possible if you stay nice and calm that your runner will realize they're being an ass- and they recover. It's also entirely possible they won't, and they will leave angry, but they may be fine next time you see them, so. Yeah,

angie 1:08:41

yeah. Yeah, a- again, going back to that pre-race conversation, always knowing what they want to do, you know, like, ahead of time, um, and giving them the least number of choices possible in that moment, right? So if they want to, um... And then this kind of goes to if they wanna drop out of the race, I think that that's a really important thing to talk about, too, um, if they wanna drop out of the race. I have never let Kevin drop out the first time he says it. So- If he wants, if he says- Oh, God, I wouldn't have finished a race. No, if he said he wants to drop, I'd be like, "Okay," like t- give him... One of the t- the techniques that I use is just give him the next task that he has to do. "Well, okay, I just need you to get to the next aid station. It's only a mile away. You can do one more mile," right? Like, we're, we're... I, I break it down. Like, there was plenty of... There was one point in the Keys where around mile 50, at 47, I was like, "Okay, no, all, all you have to do is two more miles. You can do two miles, right?" And he's like, "Yeah, I can do two miles, but I can't do 50 more." I said, "We're not thinking about that right now. I, I'm gonna see you in two miles, okay? Just get to me. That's all I need you to focus on right now, and then we'll, we'll figure it out from there." And so really helping to break up that race for them mentally because he's gonna wanna, like, be like, "I can't do this. I can't do this," right? And, um, that was kind of ultimately when Kevin did choose to DNF in the Keys. I said, "No, we're d- we're, we're just gonna go a couple, w- two more miles," was, was my, that was one of my strategies. And he's like, "Angie- "Yes, I think I could make it two more miles." He goes, "But I know for sure that I'm not gonna make it another 35 with, with my stomach like this." And, and I'm like, "It's okay. We don't have to think about this yet." And he's like, "Yes, I do, because there's no way." Like, it's dark, it's getting dark. Like, he was very level-headed and he didn't want to make that decision. He was very sad to make that decision. But he felt that that was the best decision in the moment. Um, you know, that's arguable. Who knows? We said w- if he would've gone two more miles, like maybe his stomach would've gotten better. Who knows? But we've had that deci- the, we had the discussion ahead of time. He had been saying for at least 10 to 15 miles that he wanted to quit, and then when he finally said it at that point, I was like, "Okay," like, "It's, it's time to be done."

kevin 1:10:50

And if you DNF, you always have to officially drop out of the race. Yeah. Like, you have to talk to a race director, somebody at an aid station. Like, somebody has to know that you're done- Mm-hmm so they don't think that you're lost in the woods or down the road- Right or wherever the course is. And when we called and said that we're DNF-ing, like the person on the phone was like, "Well, what's going on?" Mm-hmm. Because they were also prepared to help me not- Yeah drop out of the race. And I was like, "Oh, well, it's his stomach." And, and they, with no hesitation, I vividly remember this, they're like, "Well, has he tried to just throw up and keep going?"

angie 1:11:18

So funny. Um, but that m- takes us to medical distress, right? Throwing up, okay, that's gonna happen, right? But you have to also understand enough medically, um, which is why it's helpful that I am a medical professional. My friend that was with us, uh, the first race, was a nurse, or is a nurse. Um, but have they had a fall? Are they having chest pain, confusion beyond that normal fatigue? Like, there's a lot of runners that hallucinate during these races. Like, what is happening there? Like, uh, is it a, a complete inability to keep food down, right? That was essentially what was going on with Kevin, is like he just had a, an inability to eat anything. It's not that he couldn't keep it down, it's that he just couldn't put anything else in. But that's different than like, okay, if you are throwing up, you're nauseous, you can't keep anything down, you're having confusion, like multiple symptoms also, there's race medical support, and you're gon- you might need to call the medical support team. Um, and that's a non-negotiable thing, because you need to get the- If, if, and if you're unsure, call them, right? They always have phone numbers or, or things available where you can call, and then they will ask you those questions. "Well, what is your runner experiencing?" And they will help you kind of triage and help you understand, is this something that we need to stop and get medical support for, or is this something that you can help kind of push them along?

kevin 1:12:38

Yeah, this is not like random doctors that have never dealt with any of this before. Like, these are people who have s- serious medical training, but also know what ultra runners are doing to themselves.

angie 1:12:48

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:12:49

So they don't want to say, "Your runner cannot continue." Yeah. Their goal is to be able to get off the phone and be like, "All right, that runner's still going." So if, if you're not sure- Mm-hmm get race medical involved. Yeah. And if race medical says you have to stop- Mm-hmm then no one has to make the difficult decision.

angie 1:13:06

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:13:06

Then somebody else did.

angie 1:13:07

Yeah.

kevin 1:13:07

Like, the runner can't be disappointed in themselves. No one's mad at their crew chief because they were, they were, you know, it felt like they were encouraging their runner to stop. Like, no, medical said you cannot continue.

angie 1:13:19

Yeah.

kevin 1:13:20

Great, and then we're, and we're done.

angie 1:13:21

And then we're

kevin 1:13:21

done. That's it. Yeah. That's, that's what my body had today.

angie 1:13:23

Yeah. But just understand that there's gonna be a huge psychological aspect. Like, your job as the crew chief, yes, is to make sure they have everything that they need physically, but it's also to s- provide that emotional support for them and know what's gonna pick them up. When is it a good time for me to, like, have a certain mood? But, like, genuinely, and for the m- like, the majority of the time, the more neutral that you can be as the crew chief, the better, I think. Kevin, would you agree as the runner?

kevin 1:13:51

I think so. And I think- Yeah I mean, I think that you've always done a good job of, of showing me neutral. Mm-hmm. In, in the Keys, I don't think that you were. I think that it took you a lot more energy to then put on to me- Mm-hmm that you were neutral.

angie 1:14:05

Well, it was also helpful for me to have another adult friend with me, you know, and not just the kids, uh- Yeah 'cause, like, I know, and thank God, 'cause that was the, our first experience, you know? And I think I've gotten better since then, and I can take on a lot more emotional load because it's, I'm, I'm now bearing the load of you and the kids and myself and making sure that everybody stays as regulated as possible. And that really takes me perfectly to our next secti- section, which is taking care of yourself as the crew chief or as the cr- a crew member. Because if you are crewing 100-miler, like, you're likely going to be up for about 24 hours or so, or even longer, and you might be having to drive, navigate, hauling gear, making decisions, you know, managing your emotions. That's really hard to do when you are s- are tired and sleep-deprived. And so it's really important to do everything that you can to take care of yourself so that you can take care of the runner better. So if you do have multiple crew members and you can get a nap in, fantastic, but always make sure that someone is awake and alert just in case. Um, but if you can take shifts for that, great. I haven't really had to do that. Um, our girls have taken a nap every single time. Uh, the last- I, I, I take that back. I took a small nap, maybe 20 to 30 minutes, in your last race because I had talked to you along the way. I, I was kind of calling and checking in with Kevin, and he's like, "I'm walking. Like, this is just, this is torture. There's no way I'm getting there before whatever time." Um, and so I felt like I, I, I could do it, but even so, I was- I'm so on during that time that it's hard for me to fall asleep because I'm like, "Well, what if he needs me? What if I, you know, what if he, what if I miss him?" Like, I've, I've got all these things. But do whatever you can to get as much rest. Even though I maybe didn't fall asleep, just to, like, have my eyes closed and rest and not have to, like, think or do anything is, is very helpful, and it's a good reset for my nervous system.

kevin 1:15:59

Yeah, I think whenever you can get a nap is helpful. Mm-hmm. Even if it's like, "Well, I, I don't need a nap right now- Yeah 'cause it's, it's early in the day," you probably had to wake up super early for the start of the race.

angie 1:16:08

Yeah.

kevin 1:16:09

If you can nap early in the day- Mm-hmm that's going to help for later-

angie 1:16:12

Yeah

kevin 1:16:13

cause there's gonna be a point where you, you would like to nap and you don't have the time.

angie 1:16:17

Mm-hmm, yeah. Make sure that you're eating food. Like, make sure you as a crew chief are eating enough food, you're staying hydrated, because you don't wanna be tired and under-fueled yourself. You're gonna make worse decisions. You're gonna allow your emotions to come out, right? So it's gonna be much harder for you to stay emotionally regulated to help your person if you are tired and fatigued and hungry as well, right? So you gotta make sure that you are taking good care of yourself. Um, driving, if, if driving is involved, again, it's helpful to have other people that can share the driving responsibility. Um, and if you're not able to drive safely, like if you're f- feel like you're falling asleep, I told, I told my girls, like, even though they couldn't drive in the last couple of races, um, "If I'm falling asleep, I'm gonna wake you up, and you're gonna have to, you're, it's gonna be your job to keep me awake. You know, like, to talk to me, to put, I'm gonna have to put the radio up really loud. Sorry if you wanted to sleep, but I need to, like, keep myself awake here, too." Um-

kevin 1:17:13

Yeah, I, I know that there are, there are people that I've, I've heard interviews with, with runners- Mm-hmm that they have a crew member, their job is driving.

angie 1:17:20

Yeah.

kevin 1:17:21

And they d- are not responsible for anything else out of the day. Mm-hmm. Their job is driving. They get to the next place. They are trying to nap as much as possible- Yep and then they move the vehicle from place to place. Great. That's their job.

angie 1:17:31

Yep, yep. Yeah, so maybe as the crew chief, you're not the driver, right? Like, 'cause you're doing a lot more. If you can have a separate driver, that's gonna be a great idea. Um, and then again, just manage your own emotions, right? Like, do your job to manage your emotions, not in front of your runner. Don't let anything that your runner does get to you. Don't be reactive. Don't lash out. Like, do whatever you can to manage your own emotions. And then if your runner leaves and you're, like, feeling really crappy and offended, like, deal with it on your own. Like, go yell at the sky. Go do some sprints. Like, do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself emotionally, um, but don't do it in front of your runner.

kevin 1:18:09

Yeah, and then ultimately celebrate yourself. Like, hopefully your runner celebrates you.

angie 1:18:14

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:18:14

Like, I know I've said this at the end of every race, there's no way that I'm making it to the finish line without you guys as my crew. Like, I'm just, I'm not, I, I, I could not have made it to the finish line these last races- Yeah without you guys. Um, so hopefully your runner is celebrating you, but you should take pride in the accomplishment. If the goal is get your runner to the finish line- Mm-hmm and that happened, you won the day.

angie 1:18:37

Yeah.

kevin 1:18:37

Like, that's, that's an amazing accomplishment- Mm-hmm 'cause that is a very difficult task.

angie 1:18:42

Yeah, and if you're the runner listening to this episode, honor your crew. Like, tell them those things. Like, I don't know what love language everybody's using here, but, like, everyone likes to be acknowledged. Everyone likes to be appreciated. Your crew is giving up their time, their effort, their emotional sanity, their sleep. Like, your crew is sacrificing a lot for you, so express that to them. Express appreciation. Let them know how much you appreciate that they're there. Maybe buy them crew, like a g- a little gift or something too. You know, that would be really cool. Um, but, but figure out a way that you can honor your crew, uh, both before and after the race.

kevin 1:19:24

Yeah, I mean, 'cause it is, it is your crew that is going to help you so very much. Yeah. Like, I, I know I've told this story before, but it was Daytona that I was falling off the pace, and, and the wheels were falling off, and my feet were killing me, and everything was hurting. And I'm like, "I'm not gonna make it before the time that I suggested." Mm-hmm. And you just told me, "That's okay. We're gonna be here whenever you get to the finish line."

angie 1:19:46

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:19:46

And that's- Beautiful that is what I needed.

angie 1:19:48

Mm-hmm.

kevin 1:19:48

And I, without that statement, I don't know if I would've made it all the way to it, because my, I was starting to spiral. And you said, "It doesn't matter when you get there. We're going to be there."

angie 1:19:59

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the support is physical and emotional, and just be ready to take it on. Um, so don't forget, all the thi- I mean, there were so many, so much good stuff in this episode, so there's not really even a summary to do. But if we had to summarize, um, make sure that you do the pre-race conversation. That's one of the most important things. Have all of those hard conversations beforehand. Know what you need to say, you know, at different points in time, especially if your w- runner wants to drop out. Um, and, and really have a, a good checklist so that you know all the things that you need to do at every single pit stop. Um, but we are gonna be making, I'm gonna make, I, I think there's just so much good information between this one and the last one, um, episode, that I'm gonna be making a, a download for you guys so that you can have a checklist, because I think that that would be super helpful. So check out the show notes, um, and get that checklist w- after you listen to this episode. Excellent. Kev, anything you wanna leave us with?

kevin 1:20:56

No. I gotta sign up for another ultra so we can st- keep, keep the content coming.

angie 1:20:59

Yeah. Oh, gosh. Lord have mercy. Um, all right. So if this was helpful, please leave us a review, share it on social media, share it with someone else. If you're a runner, share it with your crew. If you're a crew, share it with your runner. Uh, make sure that you guys are all on the same page with everything. And as always, thanks for spending this time with us today. This has been the Real Life Runners Podcast, episode number 471. Now get out there and run your life.