470: Your First Ultramarathon

Have you ever looked at an ultramarathon and thought, There's no way I could ever do that? If so, you're not alone.

In this episode, Kevin and I are kicking off a new series all about ultrarunning, and we're starting with the biggest question of all: Why would anyone want to run an ultra in the first place? More importantly, how do you know if it's the right challenge for you?

This conversation isn't just about logging more miles. It's about becoming the kind of person who's willing to embrace a big goal, trust the process, and grow through the journey. Kevin shares lessons from his own ultramarathon experience, and together we unpack the mindset, training, and lifestyle shifts that make these races possible.

Whether you're seriously considering your first ultra or you're simply looking for inspiration to tackle your next challenge, I hope this episode helps you see that you're capable of more than you might think.

Get your Ultimate Ultramarathon Guide here!

Key episode marker?

01:14 Kevin’s COVID Ultra Origin

04:18 Could You Run One

09:09 Find Your Why

13:33 Lifestyle and Process

17:23 Training Habits and Mindset

29:41 Journaling and Commitment

31:42 Training Volume Basics

35:01 Mileage Targets by Distance

35:52 Back to Back Long Runs

37:11 100 Mile Prep and Cross Training

38:22 Pacing Intro

38:45 Ultra Pacing Reality Check

40:01 Aid Stations and Gear Slowdown

42:26 Start Easy Break Into Thirds

47:08 Strength Mobility Race Durability

49:39 Fueling Targets Real Food

55:02 Hydration Sodium and Sweat Rate

59:03 Practice and Adapt on Race Day

01:02:31 Race Specific Skills Checklist

01:08:05 Mental Strength and Wrap Up 

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Transcript

Angie 0:00

Have you ever thought about running an ultramarathon, but you're just not sure where to start? Because if so, the next couple of episodes are for you. Even if you've never considered running an ultra or if you maybe have it as a far-out goal, we're gonna be talking about running your first ultramarathon. So this is gonna be great for you. If you're thinking about this, maybe this will open up a possibility for you that you didn't even think was there, before you listened. And it's also going to be for you if you are helping to crew someone else's ultramarathon. So we're gonna be doing a series. Today is episode one of two. We're gonna be talking about you as the runner and how to complete your first ultramarathon. If you are a seasoned ultrarunner, I'm sure that you can get some good nuggets of information from this too. And then in part two, we're going into how to crew an ultramarathon. So stay tuned. What's up, runners? Welcome to the show today. We are talking all about ultras, because this is a big thing that has been a part of Kevin's journey. and we've gotten a lot of questions over the years since Kevin has started this whole ultramarathon journey of his. let's kinda start off, Kev, with a little bit of a history. I know that this episode is gonna be a lot of Kevin, because he is the one that has run the ultramarathon, so we're gonna be getting a lot of perspective from him. And I will, of course- It'll make it one of my

Kevin 1:45

favorite episodes.

Angie 1:47

Yeah. So I, of course, am going to offer all sorts of things as well, but let's start off with a little bit of history. So Kevin started, Kevin ran his first ultramarathon at the end of 2020. Correct? In 2020.

Kevin 2:01

It was a COVID ultra.

Angie 2:02

COVID ultra. So tell us, why did you even want to do this? What was going through your head? I think that we all know what we were experiencing during the l- time of COVID, but, w- how did you kinda make that shift over into ultramarathoning?

Kevin 2:18

I think a lot of people made weird, fitness health journey shifts during COVID-

Angie 2:23

Yeah

Kevin 2:24

because you, you could. there was just-

Angie 2:26

because there were no other races available, right? So you kinda had to make up your own stuff.

Kevin 2:31

races got canceled, then people started doing virtual races. Yeah. It somehow stuck around, which I find an interesting, add-on from- Yeah from that time. But,

Angie 2:39

you know- you, they always say runners will run for medals and bananas, so-

Kevin 2:43

That's

Angie 2:43

true if you do a, if you do a virtual race, as long as you pay the fee, they'll send you the medal.

Kevin 2:47

But they won't send you a, a cold, awkward half a banana, Thank

Angie 2:51

God.

Kevin 2:51

back in 2020 it was like, we i- in Real Life Runners had, were having the campaign around the slogan of Run Your Life. And it was like, what would you do if all the races disappeared, would you still run?

Angie 3:05

Yeah.

Kevin 3:05

And it's yeah, I'd still run. Running's so much of who I am. but I'd still wanna compete. Yeah. And if I couldn't compete against other people in, a formal race setting, what would I do? And it just, it opens up so much curiosity if every, all the dynamics of what you currently are doing get flipped on their head, then what do you do? And I think it just really opened up t- to I'd see how far I could go. Yeah. Because seeing how fast you can go is, it's interesting, and I played that game for a while. seeing who you can beat is interesting. I played that game for a while. But then I got to a point where it was like I wondered just how far I could go. Yeah. And ultras have always been a thing in my head since childhood. m- my neighbor across the street, two doors down, he ran Western States when I was a kid. before there was a lottery to get in. back- Yeah when you could just, drive up and be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna run this race."

Angie 3:59

So funny. Yeah, so if you guys want more of Kevin's background specifically, we've done episodes in the past around Kevin's 100-mile journey. But today we really f- want to focus more on you. There's also, you can gain a lot of really great information from those episodes as well. But we really wanted to make this one kind of a guidebook in a way, to help you decide, number one, if an ultramarathon is actually what you wanna do, because like we're about to talk about, it, you have to be very clear that this is what you want to do. There's not really a lot of question marks, because the training and everything that goes into it, and then of course the race itself requires a level of commitment and dedication that a lot of other race distances don't. So you really have to build your lifestyle around this ultramarathon. So that's a spoiler alert, that we're gonna talk more about in today's episode. But where do you wanna start us off today, Kev? Because I think that it's important that when we, w- if someone is listening to this, an ultramarathon can be a huge goal for runners, and I'm really excited that there's a lot more talk about ultramarathons than there ever have befo- been before. Because I think a lot of runners, when they think about running, they think about road races, and there's a lot of runners out there that the road race just doesn't appeal to them, and I'm one of those. And I feel myself moving more into this trail. And I've said before on the podcast, and Kevin has pointed this out before too, I think that I would be much more inclined to do a trail ultramarathon before I have a desire to run a road marathon because there's just a different level of kind of everything involved in it. I think the whole- Yes culture of it is different. so if this is something that you're interested in, we, we hope that today will be that instruction manual to help you on your way.

Kevin 5:55

I think that it's very interesting there 'cause even if this is not something that you're like, "Oh yeah, I definitely wanna do an ultra"- Yeah if there's any inkling of maybe- it's a possibility. there, there are definitely people that are listening right now that are like, that kinda sounds interesting, but I could never." And you probably can.

Angie 6:12

Yeah.

Kevin 6:12

it's just a matter of how you approach it. It's finding the right race. It's finding the right race environment.

Angie 6:17

Yeah.

Kevin 6:18

It's finding a training plan that's gonna work for you.

Angie 6:20

there's

Kevin 6:20

a, there's a whole lot of ways to do it. I am how far can I go, but I still always have that, and how fast can I do it? that's always sitting in my head. And there are people, plenty of people in the ultras that I've done, that their pure goal is getting to the finish line before the final cutoff.

Angie 6:37

Yeah.

Kevin 6:38

it's really much more of a how far can I go? And- I

Angie 6:41

mean, even one of your friends that helped inspire your journey into the ultramarathon world, that was always his goal, too, was just finishing by the cutoff.

Kevin 6:51

I think he was the last person to cross the line in a couple of the races that he's done.

Angie 6:55

Yeah.

Kevin 6:56

And that's fantastic. That is a lot of hours out there- just continuing to propel yourself forward.

Angie 7:02

Yeah.

Kevin 7:02

And, I think-

Angie 7:03

Which is a whole different level of preparation and endurance than even you. Yes. you run 100 miles, but you do that in, 18 to 21 hours. That's much different than someone that's out there for 32 hours.

Kevin 7:15

Yeah, it's good timing on this thing. we are in, professional ultra running. we're in, the highlight season right now- Yeah 'cause we had Western States was a couple of weeks ago, and then, Hard Rock was last weekend, and then in three weeks, I think, is UTMB over in Europe. So we'll-

Angie 7:29

Badwater's this week too, isn't it?

Kevin 7:31

Badwater is in two weeks?

Angie 7:34

Oh, okay. it's in July

Kevin 7:37

I, for some re- I think it's late this year.

Angie 7:39

Oh, okay. 'Cause I was gonna say, one of the reasons I even know when Badro- Water is 'cause it's usually around your birthday, because one of our old cross country runners, her dad has run the race multiple times, and she always had to crew him on her birthday.

Kevin 7:52

Yes.

Angie 7:53

And her birthday's today. Yes. So it popped up on my Facebook feed.

Kevin 7:57

Yeah. But I think it's, I think it's late this year. I don't think it's next weekend. I think it might even- Yeah be the weekend after.

Angie 8:02

Yeah, so really we want all of you to keep an open mind in this episode. So even if you've never thought about doing an ultra, if you even have, a little question mark of, "I wonder if I could," or, "Maybe that could be interesting," just listen with an open mind. And I think that this world is really open to a lot more people than realize that this is something that could be possible for them.

Kevin 8:28

No, this is definitely a bigger funnel than people would suggest. I don't know. there's only a small sliver of the running population that could even do it. No, it's- it's a lot bigger than people might think.

Angie 8:38

Yeah.

Kevin 8:38

but-

Angie 8:38

I think it's bigger than people might think, and I think that it just is one of those things that requires a lifestyle change. Because I think that if you choose to become an ultra runner, there's so much outside of running that needs to really be considered, as with running at the forefront, right? the, your sleep and your nutrition, and, that is important no matter what distance you're running, of course. It becomes even more important as those distances get longer.

Kevin 9:06

Yeah, no, 100%. so I think one of the places that I wanna start this is simply why. Ah. Why in the world would you possibly do this?

Angie 9:14

Yeah.

Kevin 9:15

but not exactly, "What, are you out of your mind?" But specifically- why are you considering doing this- is a question that you need to have the answer to.

Angie 9:23

And I've asked you this question many times. And probab-

Kevin 9:27

you probably need a few answers, quite

Angie 9:30

frankly. Yeah.

Kevin 9:31

because it, and you need to have, firm resolve in them, because after- several hours of running, your first reason may not work anymore. And it may work again later in the run, but- Yeah maybe for a little while you need another reason. And I'm just gonna grit through it. I wanna do it to prove to myself I can cross a finish line. The finish line does not matter that much when you're, say, six hours in and expecting another six to 10 hours to go. Let alone some of these races where you're like, you're 12 hours in and expecting- Yeah another 24 hours to go. the excitement of a finish line, a picture that you can post on Instagram-

Angie 10:12

Yeah

Kevin 10:12

a shiny buckle, these are not things that are going to inspire you to keep going for the next- many hours. There has to be something more than, I'm gonna upload it to Strava and I can- I'm gonna get some kudos." that's just, it needs to be a lot bigger than that.

Angie 10:28

Yeah.

Kevin 10:28

And I think that you need more than one.

Angie 10:30

Definitely. I would agree with that. And I think that reason is also allowed to change as you continue on your journey as well. Because I ask Kevin that question every single time he decides to sign up for an ultramarathon. what do you, what's the goal? Why are you doing it this time?" And it's not to criticize or make him second-guess himself in any way, it's to help him realize what is the reason, because the first time he ran it, it was to see if I can. And now he's proven to himself three times that he can, because he's finished three 100-mile races. So now what? Now why are you continuing to do this? Because those reasons may evolve as you continue on your journey as well.

Kevin 11:14

Yeah. And I'm sure this one's gonna come back again on the next episode, but it's super important that you ask me that question- and that I clarify it to you. Because- Yeah,

Angie 11:22

as the crew chief, right? Because-

Kevin 11:24

As, yes, as my crew chief

Angie 11:25

not as j- as his wife. I need to know that as his wife, of course, but I think I also really need to know it as the crew chief, and we are gonna be talking more about my perspective as a crew chief. If you want to crew an ultra race or be a crew chief yourself for someone that you like or l- that you love, what that entails and- As

Kevin 11:43

the race goes on, sometimes it's or love or dislike. it varies.

Angie 11:46

Yeah.

Kevin 11:46

Hours pass.

Angie 11:47

but it's important for me to know that so that I can remind him of that as well.

Kevin 11:51

Yeah, 'cause honestly, when everything hurts and you're so thirsty and you're so hungry and nauseous and things are cramping up- sometimes you forget the point.

Angie 12:03

Yeah.

Kevin 12:03

And, you get to a point where you're like, you're gritting through, you've just been grinding for the last- hour.

Angie 12:09

Yeah.

Kevin 12:10

And you get to the aid station and see your crew chief, it's nice when you're in a real dark place for them to remind you, "Hey, remember you paid several hundred dollars for this." "This was your reasoning behind it." Yeah. Okay? Because, you need that refresher. It's- it's helpful. sh- she just ran Western States and then two weeks later ran Hardrock. She has on, as a tattoo on her thigh so that she can look down and see the message to herself, it says, "Suffer well."

Angie 12:40

Ooh.

Kevin 12:41

That's her why, of n- I'm not purposely just putting myself in this painful place. I'm seeing how I respond- in it. Yeah. It doesn't say suffer. It says suffer well. don't just be out here and be all grumpy. no one wants that. That's super annoying. Suffer well. You put yourself in a super challenging thing- to see what comes up.

Angie 12:59

Yeah.

Kevin 13:00

Hopefully you enj- you like what comes up. And I think that's one of the things that keeps me coming back is I didn't like what came up last time. I wanna try and change that. I wanna see how good of a person I can be in very physically and mentally difficult situations.

Angie 13:16

Yeah. Yeah, because it definitely exposes all of that, for sure. And I have not done it myself, but I've seen that happen both in you and the other spectators that I have seen on the courses. I think the other really important thing to understand with ultras is that you need to enjoy what is required to get you to the starting line. You have to enjoy the process when it comes to ultras because just like Kevin said, the shiny belt buckle, the finish line, that post on Strava or on Instagram, that's not gonna be enough to get you through 12, 20, 30 hours of running. You have to enjoy the process that it takes to get there, and that goes back also to Starting to build your lifestyle around it. And I think that it, when you go into ultramarathons, that does become a very large piece of your life. I don't think it's healthy to build your entire life around it, to build your entire life around any one thing. I think that's, it's still just a part of your life. It's a part of who you are. But in order to successfully accomplish an ultramarathon, so much of your life has to be directed toward that goal. So it's going to be really important that you enjoy the process, because it's going to take a lot for you to get there.

Kevin 14:35

Yeah, this is the same case with any huge undertaking. this doesn't have to be an ultramarathon. changing jobs, starting a business-

Angie 14:41

Totally

Kevin 14:42

starting a new... anything that is a huge challenge- that you don't really know how this is gonna play out.

Angie 14:47

Yeah.

Kevin 14:48

You have to redesign a, at least a chunk of your life around this. And, like you said, it, you shouldn't put your entire life, 'cause that just puts you in, a super fragile place. Like- if your entire life is designed around ultrarunning and you- Yeah get hurt, now what are you gonna do?

Angie 15:03

Exactly.

Kevin 15:04

that, that's just a quick spiral into depression- because suddenly you've lost your entire identity. But with most things, you have to always be thinking. I ran really long yesterday, and even today I still have to think about that and then I had an off day today. But I'm still thinking about making sure I have enough food going into my body based- Yeah on what I did yesterday and what I plan on doing tomorrow. I'm perpetually considering various food-

Angie 15:28

Yeah

Kevin 15:28

just at all times.

Angie 15:29

and I think it's also important to consider the distance that you wanna go, because a 50K is much different than 100-mile race. And also what kind of terrain you want to run on, because this is all part of the process as well. Because the, one of the things that Kevin realized after his last ultramarathon when he did the Long Haul 100 here in Florida, is that the way that he was preparing was not going to be adequate or sufficient if he wanted to run Western States, because of the strength work and the hill work and the other things that he was missing. And Long Haul is a very flat race, but Western States is definitely not. And so I think that's a big part of it. your goal needs to consider the process and the preparation that it takes to actually make that goal achievable. So in order for Kevin to run 100 miles through the mountains, he's gonna have to be very dedicated to his strength work and really build muscle, so that is going to help him climb mountains and descend mountains without just destroying his body.

Kevin 16:34

Right.

Angie 16:34

And- That's different than running 100 miles on flat ground in Florida

Kevin 16:38

Or down a road

Angie 16:40

Or down a road, yes 'Cause

Kevin 16:41

the first two that I started- were just down, down the side of the road.

Angie 16:44

Yeah, true.

Kevin 16:45

And those are about as flat as they could possibly be.

Angie 16:47

Yep.

Kevin 16:47

the, I think the second one might even been flatter than the first one, like the Keys 100. Yeah,

Angie 16:51

I think you might m- maybe had, one or two bridges to run over, but that was kind... Yeah, the f- the second one was definitely flatter. Daytona was definitely more... There were less bridges in Daytona than it, than in the Keys.

Kevin 17:01

Yeah, 'cause the Keys is just- you're continuously, it's one bridge and then the next bridge and the next bridge. Yeah. At Daytona is just as flat as it can be running A1A down, you know- Yeah,

Angie 17:09

I think there was-

Kevin 17:10

chunks of Florida coast

Angie 17:11

only a couple bridges that you may have had to do, 'cause there was that one section- And they're small yeah, there was that one section- In St. Augustine where you had to, cross over and then cross back, but- yeah.

Kevin 17:18

but it's not much. And yeah, you have to take that into account and realize- how much strength training has to go in, how much mobility- has to go in. And while you may not enjoy every aspect, you have to appreciate it the same way that you may not, for the entirety of an ultramarathon race, be, like, grinning from ear to ear.

Angie 17:36

Yeah.

Kevin 17:36

So you have to appreciate it. You have to appreciate the challenge that you're stepping up to, 'cause that same desire that shows up and says, "Yeah, I don't really feel like doing strength work today. Eh, I'm not really gonna do my strides. I know the schedule says 16 miles on the long run, but I've made it to 14. That's pretty good." All of these little things of not quite doing the whole thing are gonna show up again. Like, when you sign up for a race that's gonna be 12 hours long, if your 12-miler suddenly became a 10-miler over and over again, if you weren't putting strides at the end, it's not that the strides are make and break, make or break to your routine. It's that doing this stuff is important. Because when you get into the race and it starts getting really hard, you're gonna check your evidence file and be like, "Hey, have I had difficult things where I didn't wanna keep going and I overcame the challenge?" Or most times the challenge came up, did I decide, "Yeah, you're right, I think I have done enough for today"? Because if I have done enough for today is what has regularly played out in your head, you're not going to make it to the finish line, because enough for the day is then also gonna be, answer the question of I'm curious how far my body will allow me to go. And your brain will stop you way before your body does. your brain will start throwing up all sorts of caution flags at you and being like, "Oh, this is dangerous. We're pretty sure you're gonna die," way before you're actually in a position where you might actually die.

Angie 19:04

Yeah, and I think that points out that w- when you train for an ultra, it's not just physical training that we're talking about, it's mental training as well. Because everything that you do in your training is going to create some sort of habit. And so when you s- shortcut things, or if you skip things throughout the course of your training, not only will you not be as well-prepared physically, but also mentally you're telling your brain that it's okay to take the shortcut or the, your, it's okay to quit just because you're tired, and that's going to show up on race day as well.

Kevin 19:35

Yeah, and it's not like you have to be checking off every single box on the training plan. it's not- Of course that level. But it's a matter of which habit are you more likely to take, 'cause the brain- likes to take the more well-worn path. So if you're basically doing all this stuff, but every once in a while some part of your non-running life comes in and says, "We don't have time for this today," that's going to be okay. If it's always, "We don't have time for this. We've done almost enough. We've got most of it in," then that's the path that your brain's gonna wanna take.

Angie 20:05

Right, and then that's the result that you're going to have as well.

Kevin 20:08

Yeah, which is not the feeling that you want. DNFs are tough.

Angie 20:12

Yeah.

Kevin 20:12

they're a difficult experience.

Angie 20:13

So another reason that you might want to consider doing an ultramarathon is for the challenge itself, because any goal race or major challenge like this, that is not actually the goal. completing the race, even though we think that is what the goal is, that's not actually the goal. It is who you become in the process of achieving that goal. That's the real win. That's the real thing that we are all really after. I think that we, a lot of times people will say that they're trying to prove something to themselves. I think that if we can take it and just shift that just a little bit, instead of having to prove it- moving more towards I would like to become it. this is the version of myself that I want to become. This is what I want to see that I'm able to do, and I'm willing to do the work necessary to continue to evolve into this new version of myself that's able- Yeah to actually accomplish this thing.

Kevin 21:15

I, I think that's super key. if you sign up for a race with the goal of finishing it and that being- the challenge, you're not gonna get everything out of it. you have to be open to the difficulty that the ultra is. And, the same thing applies with road marathoning in general, especially if it's the fir- first time you've ever done a road marathon. Your long run is probably 20 miles, somewhere in that ballpark. That's where most training plans go to. And then there's the mystery of and then what happens. In an ultra, if you're running a 50-miler- Yeah if you're running 100K, you're not getting anywhere close to that distance. And then there's this whole area of mystery of and then what happens. Yeah. you wanna put in- All- the physical and the mental training, but there's a whole big question mark. And I think once you get up to, 100K- and 100 mile, I think 50K, less so on 50K Like, once you're at, 50 miles and above, even if you've done it already, I think there's still a big question mark. Just because you're out there for so many hours and so many things can come up. Yeah. If you have a shorter race, unless it is absurdly hilly, there's just less time for weird things to show up. And for you have to figure out, "What am I gonna do with this?" part of this comes into putting the training in, and then part of it comes into just being fully open to the entire ultra experience. 'Cause the training is super important. you get to make all of these decisions. At, every step in the training process- you get to decide. And you might think, no, I've got a training plan. This is just what I get to do." You get to decide whether you actually are going to go out and run, whether you're going to put in the work on that day or skip. You get to decide- Yeah that you're gonna take these very frustratingly small, teeny incremental approaches instead of taking this huge swing before you're ready. just 'cause you wanna run an ultra does not mean that you should sign up and do one in three weeks. you need to put in the work. You might be able to do it, but you might hate the entire three-week process and the whole race itself. And is that really what you wanna get out of it? It's a lot more frustrating to take these little steps along the way, but that's the best plan. That's the best plan to get to any huge challenge that you're gonna be taking, is these small little things that just add up to a huge monumental result.

Angie 23:37

Yeah, and I think that I'd like to point out from my perspective, watching Kevin train for all these races over the last six years, basically, is he really enjoys the process of it. He, when I ask him what he's got planned for the next day, and he's "Oh, I'm gonna go out and do 20," or, "I'm gonna go do 22," or whatever he's got on his schedule for that day. And then I ask him, what are you practicing? what's the plan?" And he's "Oh, I'm practicing fueling and I'm doing this and I'm doing this." And, there's, it's more than just the running. It's also, how am I gonna help my body be able to tolerate and survive when I'm out there running 100 miles? he's practicing all of those things that goes into it, and he really enjoys that process because he enjoys experimenting with food or with water or, "Okay, I'm gonna, this time around, I'm going to walk when I'm eating my food, and that way I'm gonna give my body different, w- regular walking breaks. I can practice eating my food regularly throughout. I'm gonna do it every 30 minutes on this run and see how that goes." And so there's this whole- air and attitude of experimentation that Kevin really enjoys and has fun with. So it's really that whole process, not just getting to the finish line and completing the challenge, but it's the process that he's enjoying along the way.

Kevin 24:54

Yeah. It took a couple years to realize that there's no reason to try to run while chewing- if you don't have to.

Angie 25:01

especially when you're doing 100 miles.

Kevin 25:03

That's the thing. 'cause I was so used to like, in a marathon, I'm just gonna continuously be running. Yeah. So whatever fuel I have to do, I have to figure out how to eat it while running at race pace. But race pace is so slow in an ultra-

Angie 25:15

that

Kevin 25:16

you're gonna take regular, stops at an aid station, so you might as well just stop and take down whatever food you're doing so you don't accidentally choke on it. it's going to be worth the- Yeah 15 seconds.

Angie 25:26

and that's one of the things that I always asked you, too, in, especially in your first couple of races. W- you would come into the aid station, of our car, and you just seemed like you were always in a rush. you just wanted to get in and get out as, as quickly as possible. And I'm like, "Why are you rushing? Do you realize- Inertia how much more, like, how much more running you have to do here? Why are you trying to rush out of here? One to two minutes is not going to make a difference."

Kevin 25:53

So the answer on the aid station- Yeah is inertia.

Angie 25:56

Right.

Kevin 25:57

if I stop and I keep walking while I'm eating whatever it is, while I'm taking in, a bigger drink or whatever it is, I'm still moving forward and my- body's still going. Yeah. When I get back to the car and I'm like, I'm still for a little bit, y- your body just starts tensing up. And your body's "Oh, not running. This does seem really nice." I like this option." So I just, I always feel compelled to just keep- Yeah moving. But, you watch some of these ridiculously long ultras of people doing, Cocodona

Angie 26:25

250-

Kevin 26:26

and they'll stop at an, at the aid station where, their crew is, and then they'll, climb into a camper van and be like- Yeah "All right. I'm gonna take a 20-minute nap, and then wake me back up." it's just the mo- most bonkers

Angie 26:36

thing around. Yeah, but that's what happens. All right. So is there anything else you wanted to say about becoming the person that does this or deciding every step along the way who that person is?

Kevin 26:48

there's a couple that are more personal to me, and it's taken me a few ultras to get here. but you get to decide whether you actually show up happy and grateful and joyful in the presence of those people who are helping you, or whether you're gonna be all snappy and bitey and tired and short-tempered. And this plays out for your crew. This plays out for the people at the aid station who are volunteering to just hang out in the middle of the woods overnight- Yeah to help you accomplish a goal, to, to-

Angie 27:14

Which is pretty amazing if you think about it. just think about the people that volunteer at ultramarathons. Those are some amazing people.

Kevin 27:21

They really are. you get to decide how you want to include those people around you. are you going to include people in the process? Are you just gonna ask for help on race day? Are you doing this completely solo? And the, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on this- but you get to make that decision. You get to decide all of these things, 'cause-

Angie 27:39

And I think it's always better to decide that consciously versus just allowing it to be whatever it's going to be.

Kevin 27:46

Yeah. Yeah, because the goal that you've got set out- the finish line is not going to change who you are as a person. But the exhaustion that it's gonna have by the time you get there, the training that you put into the race is going to change who you are as a person. it really, it will. The finish tr- the, finisher's medal or the belt buckle or whatever you get at the finish, that's not gonna do it. But the exhaustion of the race will highlight the changes that took place in the months prior of training. it will really highlight what has been happening for the last few months- for good or bad. I think that it just, it puts a spotlight on all of those areas.

Angie 28:27

Yeah. I think it's funny 'cause there's that saying that money doesn't change people, and s- you could also say the same thing about ultras. It just highlights who you are. Like, money doesn't change you, it just brings out more of the true you.

Kevin 28:43

Yeah, miles don't change you.

Angie 28:45

but they do if you use them consciously and if you use them intentionally, I think, because I think that you can run yourself into a totally different person. you can make that choice if that's the choice you want to make.

Kevin 29:00

I think it's difficult to run yourself into a completely different person on race day alone.

Angie 29:05

Yes, agreed. I m- yeah, I mean in the process.

Kevin 29:08

In the process. Yes. I think that you can literally completely change your life. I think that you can com- change your life entirely. But if you've been, "I'm gonna stick this out and be solo and just grind through and grit myself through," you're probably not gonna be the nicest person on race day.

Angie 29:24

Yeah.

Kevin 29:24

you're probably not gonna be all that nice to the people at the aid station. I don't think that you're gonna fully appreciate what is available to you- in the ultrarunning community.

Angie 29:33

Yeah.

Kevin 29:33

And it, it's an amazing community.

Angie 29:35

All right,

Kevin 29:36

so- So that, that was a lot of my stuff on goals.

Angie 29:38

So all of that is super important. And so we would highly recommend that if you are taking on your first ultramarathon, that you take some time to journal about this. Take some time to think about why you want to accomplish this goal, who you want to be in this process, how you wanna commit and dedicate yourself. What else in your life might you need to put aside? Because the, your lifestyle is going to need to change if you are starting to do ultramarathons. So if you are someone that normally goes out to happy hour after work, or you stay up late, these are not things that are gonna be conducive to waking up early to go out on a 20-mile run the next day. So you have to understand that there are gonna be things in your lifestyle that are likely going to need to change. Your nutrition, your eating, all of that is going to need to change, and you should write down what are the things that you're willing to change, and what are the things that are maybe non-negotiable? And make sure that this is the right goal for you, because that's step one, is, making sure that this is definitely the right goal. and after you listen to this episode and we talk about more of this in detail, you can ask yourself, "Is this even something that I wanna do, considering what I might have to change in my lifestyle? Is that something that I want?" So let's get into more of the practical sides of things, Kev.

Kevin 30:57

All right, sounds good.

Angie 30:57

Where do you wanna start?

Kevin 30:59

Okay. how do you pace an ultramarathon when it's- Okay a distance that you've never even attempted before?

Angie 31:05

Yeah.

Kevin 31:06

Because it's real difficult to come up with, like, how do I-

Angie 31:09

So before, before you jump into pacing, okay, my question is, are we gonna talk about, the training for the ultra, or are we just gonna jump right into, the race itself?

Kevin 31:19

I think that a whole lot of the race itself is then immediately connected to the training.

Angie 31:26

Okay.

Kevin 31:26

'cause how do you pace then plays out in- what kind of training is actually required for it.

Angie 31:31

Yeah. Okay.

Kevin 31:32

How do you-

Angie 31:33

Cause I think one,

Kevin 31:34

like- prove yourself is played out in how do you train.

Angie 31:36

Yeah. Because one of the big questions, I definitely think we can jump into actual race day, but I think one of the big questions that people have is, what is the training that is required? And there's a lot of question marks, like you said, about that mystery, that gap between the longest race or the longest run that you do in training versus the actual distance of your race. And so that people, there's a lot of confusion and unknown there.

Kevin 31:57

Okay, so in terms of running volume, I think it depends on what, whether you're racing or running an ultramarathon.

Angie 32:07

Okay.

Kevin 32:08

And, I've been watching livestreams for the last few weeks of people who are predominantly racing ultramarathons.

Angie 32:16

Yeah.

Kevin 32:17

I think most people show up and run an ultramarathon. And that affects how much training you really need to do and what type of training.

Angie 32:27

Okay. I think the general- So let's go from that angle. Let's go from the angle- Okay of I want to run an ultramarathon with the main goal of completion

Kevin 32:35

Then most of your training is going to look like, not super high volume, but like a good moderate volume marathon training. And then you're gonna have probably like a few weekends in, say like a three to four-month training block where you wanna do a double long run weekend. Or maybe the way that your work schedule works out, you can just have one week in there that all of your runs are just like a little bit longer than normal. Say you're out and doing seven-mile runs. Maybe that week "Can I just do wall-to-wall 10s and then still put a d- a long run on the weekend?" there's not, in terms of volume, I don't think a huge difference in terms of what I've done in preparation for a marathon of 26 miles versus an ultra of 100 miles. My overall volume has been relatively close.

Angie 33:27

Yeah, and I think that's a really important thing for people to understand, because that, I think, is one of the biggest question marks that they have. People automatically assume that in order to go from 26 miles to 100 miles, they have to do four times the training.

Kevin 33:44

quadruple the mileage.

Angie 33:45

Yeah. And that's just not what, that's not the truth. you don't even really have to do double the mileage, right?

Kevin 33:51

Even at the elite of the elite level- you're looking at people who race 100 miles to win, and people who race marathons to win, they're running similar volumes. and then it works down to the people underneath. So people just-

Angie 34:04

Yeah, because the human body can only do so much. there's- Yes there's only so many hours in the day, and there's only so much the human body can do because you still need time to recover from all of this, especially if you are not an e- an elite professional runner where running is your job and you have actually other jobs and other responsibilities that you have to take care of on top of your running. Your body just needs that time to recover. So there's just not enough time for you to go out and run insane amounts of mileage, and it's not necessary either. You can definitely complete an ultramarathon on, what would you say? what kind of weekly mileage would you say is the minimum, i- if you had to do a minimum and then like a more recommended range, and then of course- there's lots of people that would go into a higher range.

Kevin 34:52

What's the race distance? Oh. 'Cause an ultra starts at a 50K.

Angie 34:55

Good point. Okay. So a 50K training, so 50K is basically 31 miles. you would train essentially the same way that you would with a marathon.

Kevin 35:03

I would, you're likely now talking about adding in extra strength training.

Angie 35:07

Yes.

Kevin 35:08

you're tweaking the, what the training looks like, but volume-wise- is probably fairly similar.

Angie 35:13

About the same. And the same f- for long runs, right? your long run would probably be about 20 to 22 miles if you're trying to train for a 50K.

Kevin 35:21

Yes. And then you're gonna, but again, you're gonna have to know the terrain of the course and be- it's, i- it's not that much longer than a marathon. It's- it's less than five miles over a marathon, except I have to climb up and down this mountain." So the volume-wise-

Angie 35:35

So that

Kevin 35:35

makes a huge difference is

Angie 35:36

good.

Kevin 35:37

Yeah. So you- Yeah what the training looks like is gonna be different, but the volume is probably similar.

Angie 35:41

Okay. And then also- And then what about, a 50-miler-

Kevin 35:43

a

Angie 35:43

50-miler and a 100K? Yeah, a 50-miler and 100K put together

Kevin 35:46

I think now you're starting to say you're gonna need some weekends where you're doing double long runs into it. Okay. Or-

Angie 35:52

What does that look like?

Kevin 35:54

So to me, I think that you're looking in the, 40 to 50 miles per week in general. Total? What'd you say?

Angie 36:06

Or for that total or for that weekend?

Kevin 36:09

No, I'm saying, 40 to 50 miles a week should be, like, your general place that you're living when training for the race. And then maybe on a couple of weeks during the training block, you have, a bigger spike in there.

Angie 36:20

Okay.

Kevin 36:21

Because you do a 20-mile followed by, a 15-miler. that's 35 miles right there, and then you add up some runs over the rest of the week, and you can very quickly get, a bump in your volume.

Angie 36:32

But- Yeah, so when Kevin talks about doing double days, that's what he's essentially talking about. Yeah. He's talking about maybe a 20-miler on Saturday and then a 15-miler on Sunday so that the o- the overall weekend mileage is much higher. doing those back-to-back long runs is going to essentially help your body learn how to run on very tired legs, which is really the big goal of ultramarathoning, is being able to continue running and continue moving forward when you are exhausted and don't want to do it.

Kevin 37:00

yeah. Fatigue resistance is the name of the game. The game, name of

Angie 37:03

the game.

Kevin 37:03

That and train your stomach.

Angie 37:04

Yeah. it's really- And then what about 100 miles? what kind of volume for 100?

Kevin 37:08

so to know that I, me personally, to feel that I'm ready for it, I'm putting up repeated 200-mile months. So that means that I'm somewhere in the, 50 to 60 miles per week.

Angie 37:20

Yeah, which people would say is not that high mileage when it comes to ultramarathoning.

Kevin 37:25

I think that I am remarkably low mileage.

Angie 37:29

Yeah.

Kevin 37:29

I would like... But like you pointed out, you have to make sure that you have time to recover from everything. I think if I had a greater window of recovery, that I would put myself higher and try to get more like 70 to 80 miles in during the week. or like 50 to 60 miles, but then several hours of cross-training on a bike or an elliptical- or something that isn't necessarily the same running pounding on me-

Angie 37:53

Right that

Kevin 37:54

would get in several extra hours of cross-training. And that, you can do that with all of these distances, of maintain your mileage, but then throw on an extra hour-long bike at the end of your long run. keep your long run what it is, but when you finish, grab a snack and then go get on a stationary bike for an hour. it's- it's a way to build up the aerobic volume without beating your body up quite as much.

Angie 38:14

Perfect. All right, so let's talk about pacing.

Kevin 38:18

Okay. So depending on the distance, 50K up to, 250-plus mile races, they vary quite a bit. Depending on what kind of terrain you're running on, it could be really difficult to determine what the pacing is for a particular ultra. Yeah. Especially if, what you're used to running is, say, a half-marathon. if you're used to racing 13 miles, trying to figure out, "How do I pace out 62 miles?" seems bonkers. and trails aren't roads. They're very different. It's a very different running experience. Hills are very different than flat. Downhills are gonna put a beat-up on your body in a way that you're like, "Oh, if you go downhill, you can go so much faster." You may be, but you may just torch your quads and not be able to finish the race. 62 miles is very different than 26 miles. So you've gotta figure out, what is the ultra that I'm going to do so that you can decide, if it's a basically well-groomed course 50K- you can pl- try to pace it similarly to, a marathon. if it's not, if it's a 100-miler and you've never done anything longer than 26, you're like, "All right, so here's some hopes and dreams of some time goals that I have. I'd like to finish somewhere around 24 hours," 'cause that's a big number that people like to put on ultras.

Angie 39:35

Yeah.

Kevin 39:36

So have- figure out what that pace breaks down to for 24 hours. Or- and then figure out what that pace breaks down to if you went slower and you ran it in 26 hours. What if you had an amazing day and you did it in 23 hours? And now you have this wide range of pace goals.

Angie 39:53

Yeah.

Kevin 39:54

But keep in mind that those paces include stopping at aid stations regularly. So if you're like, "Oh, I need to be holding 12-minute pace," that doesn't mean that when the race starts you should slide into your 12-minute pace.

Angie 40:07

Yeah.

Kevin 40:07

That means that you're running probably, 10 to 11-minute pace and stopping periodically at aid stations.

Angie 40:13

Like- Yeah, I just did the math, and 24 hours is 1,440 minutes, so that means that's 14 hours, basically. Al- almost 14 and a half hours. I'm sorry, 14 and a half minute pace-

Kevin 40:28

Yes

Angie 40:29

is what I'm going for. Sorry. Yeah. Yes. So the- you're looking at about 14 and a half minute pace in order to complete the race in 24 hours, which when you say that out loud, that seems slow for some people because they're used to running maybe 10 or 11-minute pace or nine-minute pace or whatever in, shorter races. But like you said, you also have to account for stoppage time.

Kevin 40:50

Yes.

Angie 40:51

It's not like- It's- It's not like soccer, where you just add it in whenever you want.

Kevin 40:56

When you stop at an aid station, if... Go right ahead and stop your watch, but the clock at the race is just- just gonna keep going. Every bathroom break- Especially

Angie 41:03

if there's a cutoff

Kevin 41:05

and every bathroom break that you take, the clock just keeps on rolling.

Angie 41:09

Yeah.

Kevin 41:09

And, we'll get into eating and hydrating in a second, but- you may be able to get through a marathon without having to hit up a porta potty if things- Yeah are going smooth for you. You're not finishing an ultra without stopping somewhere along the way.

Angie 41:22

Yeah.

Kevin 41:22

you're just not gonna do it. You're going to have to make s- pit stops along the way. It's required. your body is not gonna be able to handle it. Yeah. You're going to be stopping regularly at aid stations. If it's super hot outside, you get to aid stations and take in a lot of water, people will be dumping water on you. You might be carrying a pack the entire time. That's gonna slow you down. there's just, there's a lot more involved in a trail race, especially if the aid stations are, like, spaced out. the stuff sponsored by UTMB, they've got their required list of gear that you have to have with you at all times. Just the minimum required gear makes your backpack, 15 pounds.

Angie 41:56

Yeah.

Kevin 41:57

So-

Angie 41:58

Yeah you

Kevin 41:58

know, you-

Angie 41:59

So-

Kevin 41:59

That affects pacing.

Angie 42:00

Of course. So what would you say, like, how would they start the race? if they say, if they do the math, they're like, "Okay, I wanna finish in 24 hours, so my goal pace would be, like, 14 and a half minute pace for the whole thing," obviously that takes in bathrooms and rest stops and all of that thing.

Kevin 42:15

Yeah, but still-

Angie 42:15

How would you-

Kevin 42:16

you're gonna be running. Yeah. if you're not used to training at that pace- it's probably gonna be that pace on average, but that's gonna include a bunch of walking breaks.

Angie 42:23

Right.

Kevin 42:23

So m- my general advice is start easier than you think.

Angie 42:26

Yeah. If

Kevin 42:27

you're like, "Oh, okay, so I know what my easy run pace is-"

Angie 42:29

Don't try to bank time in a 100-mile race.

Kevin 42:32

Yeah, but not exactly.

Angie 42:34

Right.

Kevin 42:34

you're not gonna bank time because you're taking it out quick 'cause you feel fresh.

Angie 42:37

Right.

Kevin 42:38

you still wanna take it out- super easy. if you're going for 100-miler-

Angie 42:43

Yeah

Kevin 42:43

you wanna be in the, level two out of 10.

Angie 42:45

Yeah.

Kevin 42:46

I- you wanna feel like you can go- Forever

Angie 42:49

all day. Yeah.

Kevin 42:49

for hours-

Angie 42:50

I, I think that's one of my, I think that's one of my favorite things about the ultramarathons is, the start line. The

Kevin 42:56

starting gun?

Angie 42:58

The starting line I think is my favorite part because if you're at, a 5K and they s- they, shoot the gun, everyone just takes off, right? Everyone's running and it's "Ooh, hi" thing. And then at an ultra, some of them, a lot of them are just on the side of the road, and you're like, "Okay, time to start the race," and, they shoot their, the gun, and then everybody just starts trotting nice and slow. nobody's in a rush for anything, which is great.

Kevin 43:20

Yeah. the person-

Angie 43:20

Because you can't be

Kevin 43:22

The first one I ever did at Keys- Yeah they had waves of starts because- you're going down the side of the road, and so they can't-

Angie 43:28

Yeah

Kevin 43:28

do, a mass start. And so they fire off every, three minutes another group of, six people. And so they're like, "All right, group

Angie 43:35

one- Daytona did that, too.

Kevin 43:36

Yeah.

Angie 43:37

Yeah.

Kevin 43:37

Group one, you guys are up. Group two, you guys are up." And, you and, a handful of other people start the line, and he goes, "And go." And- Yeah.

Angie 43:46

There's- But- There's no gun or anything

Kevin 43:48

but no one, takes off. the... It was the first time that I'd ever done 100 miles.

Angie 43:53

Yeah.

Kevin 43:53

And I'm used to running 5Ks. I think I... that was the- The race before that I had done was a 5K.

Angie 44:00

Yeah.

Kevin 44:00

He said, "Go," and the person next to me didn't, jolt off the line. I'm like, "All right. I guess I'll start going." And I felt like- I

Angie 44:07

guess we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto

Kevin 44:09

I felt like I was super comfortable. And then I realized that I was holding, 7:30 pace. I'm like, "Nope- Yeah, not a good idea this is way too fast."

Angie 44:17

Yeah.

Kevin 44:17

way too fast. And, even last race, I, at one point, I was leading the last race. I don't think I screwed my pacing up. I think there were a few other issues. We had a previous podcast on this one.

Angie 44:27

Yeah.

Kevin 44:28

But I don't think I screwed my pacing up, because it felt so, so easy.

Angie 44:34

Yeah. I just have- So that's really the key, is that- Yeah when you are starting the race, you really have to just go out and be in complete conversational pace, that first third of the race. So I loved... I actually listened to Sally's podcast recently about this, and she was talking about breaking your race into thirds, which I thought was a great, strategy, is like the first third of your race, no matter how long you're running, if you're doing an ultramarathon, the first third of your race needs to feel super comfortable and super easy. you could just go all day. You could take selfies. You can record video. You can have conversations with people along the way. you should feel so, so comfortable, and you should feel like you're going too slow.

Kevin 45:14

yeah, that sounds right. And then I would suggest that you don't really start trying to push until the final third-

Angie 45:21

Yeah

Kevin 45:21

if you still feel like you have the ability to push. And, but you have no chance of having the ability to push the final third- if you pushed at the start.

Angie 45:30

Exactly.

Kevin 45:30

you just don't.

Angie 45:31

Yeah.

Kevin 45:31

but that's really the only time that you might wanna start thinking about, more of a race mentality of- chasing people down, final third of the race.

Angie 45:39

Yeah.

Kevin 45:39

And it varies a little bit depending on the

Angie 45:40

course. because anything can happen, and, a- and the, that final third of the race is really where everybody, everyone falls apart, most of the time. So- or don't. Or don't, right.

Kevin 45:49

And if you're not falling apart, that's where you can start passing people.

Angie 45:51

Correct, because there's just a lot of changes that happen in that last third, because some people completely fall apart. Some people are feeling totally fine, but the lead, if you're looking at who's in what place, that changes all over the place because of how different people's bodies are responding that day.

Kevin 46:07

Yeah, so you take it out super easy, hoping that you can start moving a little bit better on the back third of it. But you pretty much always wanna feel in control.

Angie 46:17

Yeah.

Kevin 46:17

And that might mean if it's early in the race and there's a big hill, that you're walking up that hill- because you don't wanna burn matches in, the opening couple of hours of a 20-hour race.

Angie 46:29

Yeah.

Kevin 46:30

You don't wanna burn all your matches in hour two. it's just not gonna go well. You push yourself over lactate threshold level, and you start churning out lactate, it's gonna take a while for your body to figure out what to do with that. And you wanna just try and make sure that it is much more under control. Yeah. And that might mean a lot more walking than you would think earlier in the race when you still feel fresh- Yeah so that you can feel as fresh as possible later in the race.

Angie 46:53

Yeah, for sure. All right. All right. Another big p- anything else that you wanna say about pacing?

Kevin 46:58

No. You wanna talk about eating?

Angie 46:59

Yeah, we have to talk about eating and hydrating, because this is really the whole game. the whole game of ultramarathoning is making sure that you fuel your body correctly. yes, I shouldn't say the whole game. Yes, the running is important. The strength training in the preparation for the 100 miles is extremely important, so I'm gonna go ahead and put in my, little push as always. Strength training and mobility training have to be a huge part of your training. It, you cannot just go out and run. In order for your body to tolerate and be more durable so that it can sustain it, it, all of those miles, you have to have strength. your muscles have to be able to support your joints. You have to have strong ligaments, strong tissues, like, all of, and your body needs to move properly. So strength and mobility at minimum twice per week, sometime- maybe even three times per week. I would say strength training, good strength training twice per week where you're doing full-body activities, making sure you're hitting all the major muscles that we runners need to train, and then doing mobility I would even say, five to seven days per week. I'm, I totally think that doing mobility every day is a good idea, especially if you're trying to run these distances. It doesn't have to be anything crazy. It can be a 10-minute mobility routine, but just moving your body, making sure that your joints and your tissues, everything is moving and things don't tighten up and form restrictions are super important. And that also carries over into race day, and this is one of the things that Kevin and I have been talking about, too, because in watching him, run these races, one of the big things that I see in his body, and of course, this is my physical therapist lens as well, one of the big things that I see is that his body just continues to tighten throughout the course of his race. his stride gets smaller. His sh- steps become more shuffly. he just doesn't have the mobility and the range of motion, which is why one of our strategies that we are going to be trying out next time is doing regular mobility breaks during the race as well. So I do think that is a very important thing. I've given that tip to our other clients that have done ultra races as well, and when they've stopped and taken these mobility breaks throughout the course of their races, they just feel so much better, and they're able to keep going.

Kevin 49:10

Yeah, I would have pushed back on this before, but given my current circumstances, I think that might be, like, a absolute game changer for me is-

Angie 49:18

everything happens for a reason. We just have to decide whether or not we're gonna learn the lesson or be given another way to learn the lesson down the road.

Kevin 49:24

Yes. I could learn the lesson this time, or I could shuffle through the back half of my next race.

Angie 49:29

Yeah. There you go. All right, let's talk about eating and hydrating, because this really is a big piece of completing an ultramarathon.

Kevin 49:38

Yeah, I came up with this quote, and I have absolutely no idea who did, but someone described ultrarunning as a moving eating contest. it's just a mobile eating contest.

Angie 49:45

Yeah.

Kevin 49:46

because it is. you have to take in a huge amount of food while continuing to move your body down the road, down the trail, whatever it is. So one of the things that you have to keep in mind is, depending on the effort that you're putting out, y- it will vary the amount of food that you can take in. Depending on the distance you're covering, depending on the conditions, is it hot, is it cold, is it at crazy altitude, your intake will vary a little bit But in general, a big, broad statement, you're aiming to take in 60 to 90 grams of carbohydrates every single hour.

Angie 50:17

Yeah.

Kevin 50:18

Every hour, over and over for hour after hour. If your effort level is a little bit lower, you can be at the lower end of this. But I'm not saying that you should then fall off this. I'm saying that you should try to be hitting around 60 grams an hour for a lower effort, not a slower pace, but simply a lower effort. This is not about pacing. The people who are the fastest at this, the people who are just barely beating cutoffs, it all depends on how hard of an effort that feels. the people who are winning just 'cause they're going so fast doesn't mean that it doesn't feel like L2 for them. Yeah. And so that, that food is all based off of what your current effort level is. so for lower effort or if your race happens to be at a very high altitude, it is just difficult for the body to digest at super high altitude. So you have to be careful with taking in a whole lot of carbohydrates at high altitude. if you're out there for a ridiculously long adventure, then you're gonna have to start considering taking in protein, taking in fats, but you want to do this in a careful and practiced manner- Yeah because your body doesn't digest fat and protein as well. And so they may cause some GI issues. The suggestion may be that you take in some sort of, of protein or fat, but with carbohydrates. that it's not just, you're not taking a spoonful of coconut oil. you're having something that i- has some protein, has some fats to it- but as part of a thing. trail quesadillas are popular for a reason. there's, they're cheesy and greasy and d- delicious, but it's all wrapped in a tortilla, and there's tons of carbs inside of that thing. Right there's gels out there that do the branched-chain amino acids that are trying to be like, "Oh, it's like taking in proteins." It's not exactly.

Angie 51:54

No, it's not. for

Kevin 51:54

the last couple of, the last couple of ultras, I've pounded cold protein shakes- Yeah partway through. And I practiced it And quite honestly, an iced down protein shake is delicious partway through. It's

Angie 52:06

like a milkshake.

Kevin 52:07

It really is, but you gotta practice that one. Yeah. Real food is great if you've practiced real food.

Angie 52:14

Yeah.

Kevin 52:15

And if you're going at an effort level that you can continuously chew throughout. Sometimes chewing just sounds like a terrible option. Yeah. And while real food options are great, it's good for palate fatigue, where you're like, "I just don't wanna take in all these sweet gels and goos." Maybe you just don't like the consistency or whatever the thing of the gel is. One, there are dozens of brands of gels. Try some. Give it a shot. Yeah. but you gotta be careful with the real food to make sure that it is, in general, a pretty dense carb, because you don't wanna be carrying, like a plate of spaghetti seems like a great option, but that's not easily transportable. and you wanna make sure that it's still low in fiber. There's some fruit options that'd be like, "Oh, I'll, carry an apple." I could not do that. an apple's not gonna work well for me.

Angie 52:55

No.

Kevin 52:56

But

Angie 52:56

grapes work well for me. Also because of the fiber, too

Kevin 52:59

like the fibers not gonna- Like you

Angie 52:59

don't want, you don't want high-fiber foods either, if you can avoid them.

Kevin 53:03

Yes. Yeah. So you need the carbs, but if it's real food, try and make sure that it's staying in, in low fiber because- Yeah you're already gonna be stopping at the bathroom. Don't try and increase that amount.

Angie 53:12

Yeah. Yeah, so I agree. I do think that when you are getting into the longer races, more like 50 miles and above, that you are going to likely be better served eating some sort of real food. So making sure that you practice, not just relying on drinks and gels and the processed stuff. That stuff is going to be helpful, and that stuff is m- may make up a large portion of your nutrition during that race. But it is important to practice real food things too. So some of the things that Kevin has used and that I've also seen at the aid stations, and I think that would be a good thing for Kevin, for you to tell people, what you've seen at the aid stations as well, because it's important that if that's what they're having, you should try practicing with those because you never know how your body's going to react. So some of the things that Kevin likes, potato chips, or Pringles or something like that, so that if he gets overdone with the sweet, we can switch over to salty and still have some car- good carbs, and then there's also some fat and stuff that comes with the potato chips. I see a lot of M&Ms, peanut M&Ms, Skittles, like they've got all sorts of candy at the aid stations. They've got Starburst and Skittles and all sorts of things. They've got like Doritos, all different types of chips. They've got pretzels. They, a lot of times they'll have the quesadillas. They'll have the, the ramen, the broth- because that's really salty, so that's really good for electrolytes. So the noodles will give you g- good carbs, and then the broth will give you both liquid and the salt for the electrolytes. so that's a popular one. what else have you seen? Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches- are very popular.

Kevin 54:42

Yeah, grilled cheese, peanut butter and jelly, various- Yeah little sandwiches. it, it's all stuff that's still pretty easily handheld items.

Angie 54:49

Yeah. That you can just take on the go.

Kevin 54:51

Yeah. that's kinda your big one. Yeah. from a hydrating perspective- Again, drastic range, and it depends a lot on w- the conditions, how hot and humid is it. But in ballpark, let's give a mid-range of 16 to 24 fluid ounces, which is somewhere in the 500 to 750 milliliters. I looked it up for any of our metric listeners.

Angie 55:14

Per what?

Kevin 55:15

That is, that's your, the volume of water that you're looking to take in every hour.

Angie 55:20

Every

Kevin 55:20

hour. 16 to 24 ounces or fif- 500 to 750 milliliters every single hour. I do it predominantly in sports drink. But there are other people who take in a lot more food and then take in mostly plain water. Which works. I do sports drink because then I get the electrolytes out of my sports drink. If you're doing plain water, it's fine, you just gotta make sure that you're balancing your electrolytes somewhere. Which also has a super wide range, even wider than the hydration range. Hydration, 16 to 24 fluid ounces is great, but electrolytes 200 to 1,500 milligrams of sodium per hour- Yeah depending on if you're a salty or not very salty sweater. And then that varies based off of your sweat rate, and that varies based off of how tired and hydrated you are, whether you're at altitude, whether it's humid. There's so many things. You can go get a sweat test. There's places- Yeah around you can get a sweat test. It gives you a ballpark starting point, but then you have to be able to adjust off of that.

Angie 56:22

Yeah.

Kevin 56:22

you've gotta be able to go up or down.

Angie 56:24

And again, this goes back to you need to practice this stuff in training. You need to know in training. Also, the weather conditions, the- whether it's hot and humid or cold, like these, all of these things make a difference in how much you're sweating and how many electrolytes you're losing per hour. so you need to know, if you're out there running and you finish and you taste salt, you're probably a saltier sweater. If you see those white marks on your clothing or on your hat or on your bandana or whatever it is that you wear on your head, if you see those white lines, you're probably a more salty sweater, so it's gonna be more important for you to help replace those electrolytes during your race. And everybody is an individual, which is why it all goes back to training. Are you-- Is it gonna be fun for you to practice these things in training? Are you going to enjoy this process to figure out, am I a salty sweater? Am I not a salty sweater? Like, how much water should I be drinking? How-- there's, these are all the things that you practice in the training process leading up to the race.

Kevin 57:18

And when you practice them, you may end up having some training runs that are miserable-

Angie 57:22

Totally

Kevin 57:22

because you tried taking in higher salt that day- Yep and it just wrecked you.

Angie 57:27

Yeah.

Kevin 57:27

Or you tried taking in lower salt and just- trying to survive off of water and food-

Angie 57:32

Yeah

Kevin 57:32

instead of a sports drink, and that buried you. you're gonna have some days. do you wanna even try and consider heat training along the way? Like- there are things that to be taken into account of, how many various steps do you wanna put into the training process?

Angie 57:43

Yeah.

Kevin 57:44

and I'm- And a lot of it is just trying stuff.

Angie 57:46

And I think that's a really good thing to point out because I think a lot of times people think, "Oh, this did not feel good in training, so I must not be prepared for this." And that's not what's happening here at all. The- what's happening is that you are practicing things, and you are learning lessons. So you are learning what works and what doesn't work. And so just going into training understanding that some of your runs might feel terrible because you're gonna be experimenting throughout the whole training cycle, and some-- You're gonna find, part of the goal of training is to find the things that don't work so that you know better the things that do work, so that you can avoid those things on race day that don't work for you and focus more on the things that do.

Kevin 58:26

Yeah, and just because it doesn't feel great in a particular training run doesn't mean that it's bad. in order to be able to take in, 90 grams of carbs an hour, you have to train your stomach to do it. And it is trainable. Yeah. You can train your stomach to take in more food every hour, to take in more food on a constant basis. but it's not going to be comfortable on every run that you're doing it. those runs- Yeah where you're trying to up your carb intake are going to be uncomfortable runs.

Angie 58:53

Yeah. So what do you think about the advice with ultramarathons about nothing new on race day, right? Because th- this is one of the things that I think- that you and I have debated about in your ultra journey as well, because this is one of the old adages, right? Nothing new on race day. We've probably all heard this. You should always practice your clothing and your shoes and all the things beforehand. But I think that ultramarathoning is interesting in this way because you have to be a little bit more flexible and a little bit more adaptable because you e- have eaten things during your ultras that you've never practiced with before.

Kevin 59:28

On almost every ultra- I know I have taken in things that I'm like, I come back off of a loop, and you're like, "All right, what'd you have?" I'm like, I had this and this." You're like, "You did what now?"

Angie 59:36

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin 59:37

Because don't try something new on race day is very logical.

Angie 59:41

Yeah.

Kevin 59:41

Only do the things that you've practiced because that's gonna put you in the best result. But you don't practice how your body feels at mile 80.

Angie 59:49

Right.

Kevin 59:49

Like-

Angie 59:49

Because you never

Kevin 59:50

get- At no point do you practice that

Angie 59:51

you never get to training. you never get to 80 miles in training. That's not a good idea.

Kevin 59:55

And what your body feels like at mile 80, even if you've done 100 mile-

Angie 59:58

Yeah

Kevin 59:59

is not necessarily what your body's gonna feel like at mile 80 the next time. So you don't know. There's no preparation for that, which is why I think you just gotta try a lot of things.

Angie 1:00:08

Yeah.

Kevin 1:00:09

Cause if then, if you can figure out, okay, I cannot eat this.

Angie 1:00:13

Yeah.

Kevin 1:00:13

My body rejects this. You know when you get to the aid station table and they've got all this stuff laid out in front of you, because there's, four picnic tables lined up at the one that I've gone to. Yeah. Literally four picnic tables full of foods and drinks, and you come in, they're like, "What can we get for you?" And- the one time I grabbed, a cup of mashed potatoes. I, I had not practiced, like boil-in-the-cup mashed potatoes, and they handed it to me and sent me on my way. And I'm like, this is delicious and amazing," but I had definitely never practiced taking in hot mashed potatoes- at 1:00 in the morning. that was not a thing that I practiced.

Angie 1:00:50

Right.

Kevin 1:00:51

So I think that you wanna try as many food options as you can. You wanna try them while you're running different efforts. You wanna try them at different times of the day. You wanna try running at different times of the day. You wanna practice, definitely practice what you know is gonna be the fuel available on course. a lot of them will have, a certain brand of a gel that they're going to always have at the aid station, or, "This is the drink that we're gonna have at the aid station." Yeah. Practice that. Make sure that you know that's good. Because you can train your body to get to a point that it's gonna be okay with that. Try a lot of the common aid station food, even if you don't plan on using it, because maybe at mile 80, suddenly that sounds like a brilliant idea, and it'd be nice to know if it's gonna work out for you. Like a race quesadilla, trail quesadilla has never sounded like a good idea. but I... Last race, I wanted to get to the finish line 'cause I wanted one, and I knew they had them at the finish line. Yeah. I just didn't wanna even attempt it during, because I'd never tried that- Yeah and it didn't sound great. That sounds- You want to practice so that you can set yourself up for success. Yeah. You want as much routine as possible, but ultimately, you need a routine so it gives you a foundation that you can adapt from. That is your key to success in an ultra, is a plan and a lot of flexibility and adaptability.

Angie 1:02:05

Yeah, definitely. And there's also a lot of other things that you can practice based on the specific race that you're going to be doing. So I think, again, this is, we're gonna mention a couple here But you can pick and choose what's- I did

Kevin 1:02:19

make quite a list

Angie 1:02:19

yeah, what's going to be applicable for you. So one of the big things that I think that you should practice is running at different times p- of the day. Because I think this is one of the things that Kevin does really well, and I think this is one of his strong suits, in his training that sets him up for success in the ultramarathons. Because I think there's a lot of people out there that try to, w- they wake up and they run first thing in the morning. They try to run in the coolest part of the day, which is great for that training run. You're gonna feel better on that training run, but you're not preparing your body to run at 3:00 PM with full sun if all of your runs are at 6:00 AM. So it's, in, in your ultramarathon, you're probably going to be running at 3:00 PM with full sun. Maybe it's gonna be cloudy that day, who knows. But running at different times of the day and seeing how your body feels at different times of the day I think are very, is very important to do.

Kevin 1:03:10

Yeah. just some very practical ones. If it's gonna be hot, figure out how to run with an ice bandana. If you're going to be carrying a lot of fluid in a vest, you better practice doing that.

Angie 1:03:19

Yeah.

Kevin 1:03:19

if you're running- That

Angie 1:03:19

was one of the big ones that you had to practice at the beginning because your back muscles had to build up strength. So the, I will tell you guys this. If you are practicing running with a vest, and, especially if you have a water bladder in that vest, don't start with a full water bladder the first time you put that vest on. Oh, yeah. Because I remember Kevin, f- we filled it up, we just didn't e- we didn't even think about it, right? We just filled up the water bladder and off he went. He had to take it off after maybe 10 miles or something. I forget what you were doing that day. But you were so sore 'cause you're like, "This is heavy, carrying this." So you have to train your body to be able to carry more weight. So start small. Start with a, an, a weighted vest, or not a weighted vest, a vest that has just a couple things in it so that you can get used to what just the vest feels like. And then add things to it. Add the water, add the gels, add the different things that you're gonna carry along the way. Because your postural muscles, your neck, your shoulders, like all of that, you need to build up the endurance and the strength in all of those body parts.

Kevin 1:04:18

Yeah. practice hiking. if you're in a very hilly race, practice hiking. 'cause there was a race that, I forget which one it was, but I did a lot of walking, and I got a blister in a spot that I've never gotten from running, but my foot moves differently when I was walking hour after hour.

Angie 1:04:35

Oh. I

Kevin 1:04:36

think that was Daytona- Yeah where I couldn't run anymore because my knees were killing

Angie 1:04:38

me. Yeah, you had to have foot care done at mile 82.

Kevin 1:04:41

Yeah. But I had another blister that was back on my heel that I don't get from running, but I get it from walking mile and hour after hour.

Angie 1:04:50

Yeah.

Kevin 1:04:51

So if you're planning on doing a lot of hiking because it's a super hilly race, practice hiking, because that- is a skill that you don't just naturally have because you can run. Just 'cause you can run does not mean that you can hike. practice running downhill. practice running downhill in a way that your quads are not numb after you do it. if you know that the race has a lot of downhill and you're planning on running the downhill, there should be a good amount of downhill running in your training- Yeah so that you can prep your quads for that. Because as much as you love strength training, there's not much that preps your quads for downhill running like running down a hill.

Angie 1:05:23

Yeah. But you have to be careful, because if you do too much of that in training, then your body's not recovering well for it, so there's a whole thing there. a couple other ones, running at midday, running as the sun sets, running with a headlamp if you've never done that before, especially 'cause you're gonna be... If you're doing a long race, you're, it's gonna be at night. You gotta have a headlamp on. You

Kevin 1:05:42

might have to change your headlamp in the middle

Angie 1:05:43

of the night. You might have to ch- Yeah. practicing running, sitting down for a period of time, and then running again, because things are gonna tighten up on you. Maybe you sit, need to sit down and take a rest break or change your shoes or change your socks or do these other things. Maybe you practice ch- doing an outfit change during one of your really long runs. That could be, something that you practice too. But, like, when you practice all these different elements and you think about all these different elements ahead of time, then it's just one more thing that you... is not a surprise on race day. You're like, "Okay. Yes, I've done this before. I've practiced this." Even if race day is completely different, you have some experience with that thing.

Kevin 1:06:20

and the biggest thing of practicing all of these just shows that you can do such a wide range of things in your running- Yeah that if something brand new comes up on race day, you're like, "Oh, it's just another thing. I haven't exactly practiced this, but I've practiced so many things, I've figured it out." Yeah. And I think that's ultimately one of the biggest ways to succeed- in ultra running, is the ability to figure it out and not freak out when something comes up.

Angie 1:06:44

Yeah. I

Kevin 1:06:44

think that's the key.

Angie 1:06:45

Yeah. And I just thought of something. I'm gonna make a checklist for you guys, and if you want to download that free checklist, all you have to do is go to our show notes. so if you go to realliferunners.com/, let's see. I don't even know, but whenever, wherever the show notes are, we- will put a link for that in the show notes. I can't remember what, 'cause I don't think it's just, it might be just the, the episode number, but I don't think it's that simple. But if you go to the website, if you go to realliferunners.com and you click on podcast, you'll be able to get to all of our episodes and all of our show notes just from there. so yeah. We'll put a link. We'll, I'll make a checklist. That sounds like a great resource for people.

Kevin 1:07:24

Excellent plan.

Angie 1:07:24

All the things to practice.

Kevin 1:07:26

I like

Angie 1:07:27

it. All right, Kev, do you have anything else that you wanna mention before we wrap today's up?

Kevin 1:07:33

No. if you have an inkling, you are capable of doing it. Yeah. that's what I've got. I- If there's an inkling.

Angie 1:07:39

I believe that no matter what goal we're talking about. if you have a desire, then you have the ability. there's no reason that you would have a desire to do something if you genuinely did not have the ability to do it. So if you have the desire, you are able to do it. You just need the right preparation, you need the right training, you need the right support. and the other thing that I want to mention in watching Kevin, and I hope that you would agree with this, I think that ultra running especially is much more about the mental toughness and durability and resilience than even the physical side of things. I think your mental toughness, or not toughness, but your mental strength and your ability to just force yourself to keep going plays a bigger role than the physical preparation does. What do you think?

Kevin 1:08:24

yeah. 'cause i- in road racing, things tend to finish faster.

Angie 1:08:28

Yeah.

Kevin 1:08:28

In ultras-

Angie 1:08:29

You just gotta keep going.

Kevin 1:08:31

Yeah, once the physical, like the physical pain is there, the physical discomfort- Yeah is there, and-

Angie 1:08:35

Your body's gonna wanna shut down at some point.

Kevin 1:08:37

Yes.

Angie 1:08:38

Especially if you're running 100 miles. your body's just gonna tell you that it's done, and you have to be strong enough mentally to just keep going.

Kevin 1:08:45

Yeah, and, the same thing happens in a marathon, but you have to just keep going for a few more miles.

Angie 1:08:50

Yeah.

Kevin 1:08:50

In an ultra, you have to keep going for several more hours. And that's a very different mental thing to wrap your head around.

Angie 1:08:55

Yeah. Yeah. So mental training totally needs to be a part of your training and your repertoire, like getting stronger mentally, starting to see some of those dark sides of your brain, 'cause your brain's always gonna wanna offer lots of dark sides to you at all times. Being able to be there, be in it, and continue to move forward is gonna be really powerful. So

Kevin 1:09:16

we'll, we will talk- that's like outside of listening to our podcast, you should do some runs without headphones.

Angie 1:09:21

Yeah.

Kevin 1:09:22

you should spend some time alone in your head. Even if you plan on having music or whatever throughout the entire race-

Angie 1:09:30

Yeah

Kevin 1:09:30

you should spend some time alone in your head. One, I think you should race a good chunk of it without stuff in your ears, because you're gonna get a lot out of the experience. But-

Angie 1:09:38

Yeah

Kevin 1:09:39

I think that you should do some training just to see what happens when you are able to hear the voices in your head.

Angie 1:09:46

The voices, they're saying things again. I

Kevin 1:09:49

mean, they alway- they're always talking. They're

Angie 1:09:51

always

Kevin 1:09:51

talking. We're in a world that we just don't ever listen to 'em.

Angie 1:09:54

Yeah, so true. All right, you guys, if this was helpful, we would love for you to leave a comment. If you still have questions after this episode, we would love for you to reach out. You can leave a comment on Spotify. You can shoot us an email over at hello@realliferunners.com. You can reach out on Instagram. Whatever your favorite platform is, we are there, so find us on those platforms. Make sure you hit follow. Make sure you, share, leave us a review, leave us a comment, and help us spread the word. Help us to help more runners. And stay tuned for part two, where we're gonna be talking more about crewing an ultramarathon. So if you want to be a part of someone else's crew, this is gonna be what you need to know. Or you can also take that episode and send it to whoever is going to be helping you in your ultramarathon as well. So as always, thanks for joining us. This has been The Real Life Runners Podcast, episode number 470. Now get out there and run your life.