469: How We Fixed Kevin's Back Pain in Less Than 2 Weeks

A few weeks ago, Kevin hurt his back during a strength session. Like many runners, his first instinct was to figure it out on his own. He stretched, modified his training, waited for it to improve, and hoped time would take care of it. Instead, everyday activities became painful, and even short runs felt nearly impossible. But after finally asking for help, everything changed. Within days he was running again, within two weeks he was essentially pain-free, and less than three weeks later he completed a 14-mile run.

In this episode, Angie pulls back the curtain on exactly what they did—and why it worked. This isn't a "magic exercise" episode or a one-size-fits-all back pain solution. Instead, it's a conversation about how the body compensates, why pain isn't always a direct measure of damage, and how restoring movement, retraining your nervous system, and progressing gradually can dramatically change the recovery process.

Whether you've dealt with back pain, nagging injuries, or simply want to move and train more efficiently, this episode offers a refreshing perspective. You'll walk away with a better understanding of how your body adapts, why more isn't always better, and how the right approach can help you get back to doing what you love—without fear.

00:00 Kevin’s Back Pain Story

04:03 Running Timeline After Injury

07:19 What Actually Got Injured

10:07 SI Joint Explained

13:56 Psoas and Pelvic Tilt

16:30 Squat Mechanics Breakdown

19:23 Pain Neuroscience and Perception

26:58 Fear Avoidance Trap

30:51 Treatment Plan Disclaimer

32:14 Principle One Mobility

35:08 Thoracic Spine Fixes

39:25 Breathing and Slow Rehab

42:05 Thoracic Extension Work

42:56 Foam Roller Frustration

43:50 Hip Rotation Basics

46:39 90 90 Breakthrough

50:41 Psoas Release Safety

54:41 Motor Reprogramming

01:01:56 Neutral Spine Training

01:08:02 Fixing the Squat

01:09:35 Edge of Pain Method

01:14:19 Return to Running Plan

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Transcript

Angie 0:00

so four weeks ago, Kevin hurt his back doing a squat in the garage. And for the first week, he did what most of us do. He tried to figure it out himself. He modified his training, he stretched, he waited, but nothing improved. He was in pain getting up from a chair, getting in and out of bed, and sitting for more than five minutes. And one week later, he finally asked for help. And within three days, he was running. Within two weeks, he was out of pain. And this past weekend, less than three weeks after we started, he ran 14 miles. So today we're gonna tell you exactly what he did, why it worked, and what that teaches us about how runners need to think about pain, movement, and the body's ability to heal. So stay tuned. What's up, Kev? Welcome to... Actually, wha- what's up, Kev? Wel- what's up, runners? Welcome to the episode today. Kevin and I are filming. We're recording this a little bit differently because our dog, again, was not cooperating. He does not... Like, whenever Kevin is in the room, it feels like Jasper just wants to play, and so he was coming over and jumping on Kevin. 'cause normally we sit next to each other and record on the one computer, but this time we're recording on Zoom, and so hopefully the, I'm sure that the audio quality is gonna be good. We'll edit it if we need to. but also we get to see each other, and so we're gonna be able to put this video up on our YouTube channel as well, so that's kinda fun. So if you guys wanna watch us- We're excited talk to each other, you can go check us out on YouTube All right, so the first thing that we wanna talk about is give you guys a little bit of an update on Kevin's back. I know we have done a couple of different podcasts on this topic. but more around kind of the psychology of it and, the difficulty asking for help and the mindset of both Kevin and me with this whole thing. And today we really wanna talk more about the physiology aspect. We wanna actually get into what we did physically to help Kevin essentially fix his back pain. I caution to use the word fix, because, back pain is one of those things that can come back, i- but ho- hopefully it never will, but you never know. And the one thing that I really wanna point out before we jump in is the things that we're gonna be talking about today are the things that we did for Kevin, and Kevin's presentation of back pain might be different for than what y- you are experiencing or you have experienced in the past. And so I don't want this to say, okay, this is a blanket statement that this is going to work for everyone, and this process that we're gonna tell you about today is going to get rid of your back pain in two weeks. That's not what I'm saying, all right? I do think that what we're gonna be talking about in today's episode is a universal thing. I think these are the three big principles that we're gonna be talking about that you can apply to your training. but you might need more help. You might need some other additional things to, to address yours. And I'm gonna be creating more additional resources, surrounding pain, specifically surrounding back pain, because I think that the way that I typically address back pain with my pa- patients is different than maybe what other people do. So Kev, tell us a little bit-

Kevin 3:25

That is an excellent background of this will not necessarily work for everybody. Yeah. But on the other hand, Angie is a wizard. And I ran 14 miles over the weekend, and I would have done more, but thunder stopped me, not my back. Yeah. That's the weirdest thing. At no point in time during the run was I annoyed or feeling anything weird in my back. And I had to have, an awkward 30-minute break in the middle of it because, thunderstorms were over the top and lightning was literally sitting on top of us. Yeah. But even when I restarted, I wasn't all, tight and stiff and feeling weird. I just started running again- which was very different from my first few runs back couple weeks ago.

Angie 4:02

Yeah. And so as, why don't you, just give them a little bit of a timeline, specifically when it c- came to your running? Because we've talked about the psychological aspect of, what happened with you. but physically speaking, let's give the listeners a little bit of a timeline.

Kevin 4:18

Okay, so I hurt my back on a Monday And I think I immediately took, two or three days off from running because there was just no, no way. I was walking the dog still, so I was still, moving, but walking the dog was painful. so I thought running was gonna be real bad.

Angie 4:35

Yeah.

Kevin 4:36

and then you suggested that running might not make it worse. So I gave it a shot, and

Angie 4:41

it was-

Kevin 4:41

I tried to do, our neighborhood. And, my normal running pace, and these are all just numbers, but they're numbers that kind of help explain paces and how I w- how uncomfortable I was feeling. I generally will head out, and I'll run somewhere around, a 7 to 7:30 mile, and I was going out, and I would walk for a couple minutes to get things moving, and then I would jog for, 30 seconds, and then I'd take another walking break, and then I'd jog for about a minute, and then I'd take a little walking break- and then I could run, and that's how I did my first, two miles, and it took me, I don't know, 15 minutes or so.

Angie 5:14

Yeah, I just pulled up your Garmin, and it looks like you did that long, 20-mile run on June 7th.

Kevin 5:21

Yep.

Angie 5:21

And then your next run was June 11th, and you did three miles and then walked two miles, at a slower pace. So it was about four days later. No, other order.

Kevin 5:32

Okay. I walked two miles- Okay 'cause I walked, the big loop of our neighborhood. And then I felt okay, and I think that walking two miles maybe even had some jogging in it, and so I was like, "Em, I'm gonna go out and try to run a little bit," and my run was even, it was purposely designed as a run/walk. And it, it just, it felt stiff and uncomfortable the entire time. And but that was also when I was just trying to deal with it myself of, I've seen Angie deal with back pain- when she's had it herself. I'm going to do bridges, and I'm gonna roll around on a lacrosse ball, and I'm trying to think of what else I came up with in my own head that sounded like a good idea. I think I was basically, I was fishing for help without asking for help. We had that on a previous episode-

Angie 6:17

Yeah

Kevin 6:18

of any little bits that you would possibly give me as suggestions, or I'd make comments about what I was doing hoping that you would maybe give me, one extra thing to do. and it... I don't think that I was doing anything wrong-

Angie 6:31

Yeah

Kevin 6:32

but I wasn't really doing anything right. I wasn't going in... we've got a great podcast outline here- Yeah of, this is a good way to progress. I was doing random things. And like-

Angie 6:42

So were you, throwing spaghetti at the wall?

Kevin 6:44

I was just gonna say. it's similar to, like, when I cook. there's a recipe- and I'll follow the steps, but the order I'm doing them in doesn't make any sense. And now instead of eating at 6:30, we're eating at, 9:00- because I was like, "Oh, I probably should have preheated the oven," or "Oh, I forgot to do the... I also need to make sides." I just, I was missing pieces, and so it was just gonna take a really long time. I was still doing things, and I think maybe possibly, four months out it could have started improving. But there's just a much more efficient way of going at things.

Angie 7:18

Yeah. And so f- for us to, help you guys understand what we did with Kevin and his back pain, I'm gonna tell you a little bit about the anatomy and physiology of, understanding what was going on in Kevin's back first, and then we'll get into kind of what we did and the three principles that we want you guys to take away, no matter what kind of pain it is, to be honest with you. So this, what we're gonna be talking about today definitely applies to lower back pain, and it al- often applies to a lot of other different types of pain as well. So we're gonna zoom out and generalize of how you can apply this to other things. So the first thing that you need to know is what kind of pain Kevin was having. Now, he hurt his back doing a squat. So he... It was at the bottom of a squat. Ke- te- tell them specifically, Kevin, when you felt that pain.

Kevin 8:04

I was on, Literally I was almost done, and this is what drives me nuts, being a month later and, just of having lost, a rhythm and momentum of summer- training that I had going, is I think I was on, my last or second to last rep of my third set of squats. I was just so fatigued that I was at the bottom of the squat, ready to start pushing back up, and I just felt this just stabbing pain in my lower back- and still pushed up. I could've, I should have just, racked it where it was, but I didn't. I pushed up. It was super uncomfortable, and- And then I just thought that, bridges would fix it.

Angie 8:42

Yeah. a- and who knows, maybe, I know you keep saying that about, "I should never have pushed back up. I should've just let it be." But, who knows? y- you could have done the damage already, and maybe it didn't even matter. But to- And when,

Kevin 8:54

when I retell the story in my head, now there's, a crunching sound that I heard. Okay. I have no idea. I think I've just added that to the story in my head.

Angie 9:01

Our brains are so fun that way. But also, the, that lifting session that you did was also after several other activities. So I want the, our listeners to understand too, it's not like it was just this one isolated session. There was the 20-mile run the day before, and then you pressure washed our entire driveway, or our entire, sure, that was the patio, right?

Kevin 9:21

Yeah, I pressure washed the patio-

Angie 9:23

Yeah

Kevin 9:23

and all of, the tiling around the edge of the pool- which I think was what really did me in because- You

Angie 9:30

had to kind

Kevin 9:30

of bend over to get to it if you're so pressure washing the ground, you can stand there and do it, but you have to, really lean and hunch and angle over to get where I was doing-

Angie 9:37

Yeah

Kevin 9:37

after I had run 20 miles.

Angie 9:39

Right.

Kevin 9:40

And the squats were not the first exercise I did in my lifting session. it was- mid lifting session.

Angie 9:44

Yeah, so I want you guys to all understand, it's not like this was that one movement that just totally did him in. It was the combination of things over the, two days, that two-day period that was likely what led him to this. And so what-

Kevin 9:59

So it wasn't just the squat, but it was- It was in fact, the squat that broke Kevin's back.

Angie 10:04

There you go. Perfect. Thank you. There you go. Wonderful. Now, Kevin never went and had an X-ray or an MRI, so I cannot say with complete certainty that there was a, no disc involved or any of that stuff. But what I will tell you based on my clinical expertise and the presentation of how Kevin was presenting, it was, it's his SI joint, his sacroiliac joint, that was the p- part of his lower back that was affected. So the sacroiliac joint connects the sacrum, which is the triangular bone at the base of the spine. So essentially, your spine is a stack of vertebrae. If you think of, I always like to think of your vertebrae and your spine as like building blocks that are just stacked on top of each other. And at the base of that is a triangular shaped bone. It's an upside down triangle, so the base of the triangle is touching the spine, and the point of the triangle is pointing down, and that triangular bone both connects to the spine and it also connects to both sides of the pelvis. so it is a very important joint because of, there's two joints. There's a sacroiliac joint on the left and on the right, and then of course where the lumbar spine meets the sacrum as well. So it's a very important- part of the body and part of the spine f- as far as force and load, like taking on load from the body, and it is not a highly mobile joint by design. It is a very strong joint. So the sacroiliac joints themselves, it's just two bones that are connected by very strong li- ligaments, and that joint is very stable because its job is stability and load transfer. So load transpor- transfer means, it's taking all of the forces of the upper body and transmitting them down through the pelvis and into the legs, and then also transmitting ground reaction forces from the body all the way up through, or from the ground all the way up through the body. is this, are we on track so far, Kevin? Kevin's my, my monitor to make sure I'm not getting too science-y here.

Kevin 11:58

Yeah, I will help to translate anything. It just, it bothers me on an innate, going all the way back to high school level, that it is my SI joint that bothers me.

Angie 12:06

Why?

Kevin 12:07

Cause my high school's rival high school was SI. Really? yes. That's random. Yeah, 'cause they were the other Jesuit school, so we

Angie 12:10

were Bellarmine-

Kevin 12:11

Perfect and they were St. Ignatius. They were the other Jesuits, and it was, it, yeah, it was a whole thing.

Angie 12:18

Okay, so so far you're with me, right? Yeah. That des- that description makes sense. Okay, now runners are particularly susceptible to SI joint dysfunction for two main reasons. So first of all, running is a single leg sport. If you think about what running is, you're essentially jumping from one leg to another over and over again. And so every single time your body, your foot hits the ground, you're essentially asking that leg and your pelvis to absorb that force while your other leg is swinging through. And so if your hip mobility is limited or that rotational control is poor because there need, there's hip rotation happening while that leg is swinging through, then those forces get absorbed somewhere else, okay? Whenever there's a restriction in the body, compensation happens. And so if one area is restricted, another area of the body will come in to take up the slack. And so that SI, the SI joint often becomes the thing, part of the body that is starting to take up that slack. The second piece that's involved here- is the coupling pattern of the hip and the spine. And so I'm gonna be getting into more detail, of that a little bit later. But basically what it means is that restriction anywhere in the chain gets compensated for somewhere else. And so the lower back and the SI joint, just because they're at the end of that chain, they're at the bottom of the spine, oftentimes, they're, they take a lot more of the pressure and the force. they take more than their fair share. Does that make sense?

Kevin 13:49

Yeah, because everybody else just keeps passing the buck and you reach the end of the line- and your SI joint's like- And

Angie 13:52

there

Kevin 13:53

you are "All right, fine. We'll deal with it."

Angie 13:55

And there you are. Okay, so the second thing, as far as Kevin goes, like when I was doing my examination with him, was the psoas muscle. So the iliopsoas is one of your main hip flexor muscles, The, so it's responsible for, hip flexion and it's also, pelvic and spinal stability here. Now, the issue-

Kevin 14:15

Okay, when you say hip flexion, that literally means lifting your leg off the ground, right?

Angie 14:17

Lifting your leg, yeah, so like knee towards the ceiling or- Yep knee towards the air, right? So the thing with the psoas that makes this so connected to lower back pain is that the psoas actually originates on the front of the lumbar spine. So the part of your spine that's facing your belly button, that's where the, that muscle starts and then it goes down and attaches into the femur, so into the thigh bone. So because it actually literally attaches to the spine, if that is tight or if there's restrictions there, it can pull that, pull your spine forward Makes sense?

Kevin 14:54

That makes sense.

Angie 14:55

Okay.

Kevin 14:56

That's why my back's all weird and curvy.

Angie 14:58

Right, and so because of that attachment and the anatomy here is like when that psoas is tight or if it's overactive, it not only pulls the hip into flexion, it pulls the leg up, it also pulls directly on the lumbar spine. And so that can increase anterior pelvic tilt, which means tilting your p- your, pelvis is tipping forward, which is increasing the arch in your lower back, and that puts your lumbar spine, the lower back, under sustained compression. And so when we analyzed Kevin's squat pattern, we found that anterior pelvic tilt was excessive at the top of his squat. and hi- his lower back was excessively arched before he even began the movement, so that's gonna put extra pressure, on the pro- or extra pressure on the spine and the SI joint.

Kevin 15:41

All right, so let me see if I can translate a little bit of that- hopefully. 'cause every time you talk about the pelvic tilting, I always... I get the words backwards.

Angie 15:49

Okay.

Kevin 15:50

So this thing is super, super tight. It connects to my lower spine, and it connects that to the top of my thigh bone. Since when I'm standing there, I'm not gonna overcompensate by just lifting my leg off the ground. I could. I could overcompensate by just always standing like a flamingo. But that's... Instead, I'm gonna keep both feet on the ground-

Angie 16:13

Yeah

Kevin 16:13

but I'm gonna curve my back and stick my butt out behind me.

Angie 16:17

and so it's kinda it's like sticking your butt out and, tilting your pelvis forward.

Kevin 16:21

Yeah. Okay. and I've tried to go the other direction, and it just, it feels so awkward. It doesn't feel uncomfortable, it just feels so awkward.

Angie 16:29

Yeah. All right, so then that leads us to the next issue that we figured out with Kevin's, squat. 'Cause like we a- I analyzed his squat pattern to figure out like why did this happen during the squat. And so Kevin started off with this anterior pelvic tilt, so that excess arch in the lower back, with his hips tilted forward because of the tightness in his psoas, because of the weakness in, the spine and the glutes. And then what would happen is Kevin then went from that excess forward tilt, and then at the bottom of his squat he went into an excess backward tilt, or a posterior pelvic tilt. So the pelvis like tucked under him. And when that lumbar spine was like then undergoing an excessive amount of flexion under load. And so there was this alternating pattern of extremes. He had too much, like he had a big arch in his back at the top of the squat, and then that arch disappeared and that back was completely flattened out. The spine was flattened out at the bottom of the squat. And so there was too much extension at the top, too much flexion at the bottom, and so his lower back was just absorbing load that it wasn't designed to absorb. And so h- the SI joint was being stressed with every single rep that he was doing. Add in the fatigue that he was having because of the 20-mile run, because of the pressure washing, because this was the last set in his whole strength session, and his SI joint was just like, "I'm done. Tapping out here."

Kevin 17:50

Yep, which is essentially what it did. It literally just tapped out, and then my whole rest of my body freaked out.

Angie 17:56

Right.

Kevin 17:56

But okay, so the issue is I was excessive, let's- Excessive forward at the top- Yeah and excessive backward at the bottom.

Angie 18:05

Yeah.

Kevin 18:06

If I was one or the other- it would have put less strain on it.

Angie 18:11

Most likely. But becau- but the reason that happened for you is because you wanted to go lower in your squat, and so you didn't have enough of the flexion and internal rotation to get lower. And so in order for you to get lower in your squat, you decided that you were... you didn't consciously decide this. I decided. But you, your bo- you wanted to go lower, and so your body wasn't able to do that because you didn't have the hip mobility for it. And so that mobility then got transferred and you had your lumbar spine compensated and, really flexed under to allow you to go lower in the squat.

Kevin 18:43

Which is bonkers. Yeah. Because, I'm not thinking, "Oh, I'll just posteriorly tip my

Angie 18:47

pelvis." This all just happens automatically unless you are aware of it.

Kevin 18:52

Yeah. But the body's phenomenal. Y- I wanted to do this motion, and my body figured out, "Oh, we'll do this to allow you to go into that position."

Angie 19:00

Exactly.

Kevin 19:00

Cause it wasn't what was supposed to happen.

Angie 19:02

Exactly. And so that's the what when it came to, what exactly happened with Kevin and why this caused a pain with him. Now, getting back to and maybe we'll get to this a little bit later in the episode of, like, when it, when is it okay to run? 'Cause I'm sure that's, one of the top questions, that every single runner has. And we are- That was my question. and we are gonna talk about that, for sure. but before we talk about, treatment and getting back into running, it's important, for us to also understand the neuroscience of pain. And this is one of the comments that, has come back to bite me 'cause it was received in a way that it was not intended. So Kevin says that one he... I'll let you tell the story of, what I said when- I didn't know- When you told me about your pain what the story

Kevin 19:47

was.

Angie 19:47

because I'm very... I wish we had, a video camera. Actually, we do. I think it was, it happened out here. we should check the Zoom cam. actually, I don't think I have that much r- history in our recording, but, you said that I just told you, "Oh, this is all in your head." And, clearly that's not exactly what I said, but that was the way that you perceived it.

Kevin 20:05

No, this is exactly what happened. So I was sitting at my computer trying to get work complaining that my back was hurting because I couldn't sit for very long- because sitting was remarkably uncomfortable, but so was laying down and standing. The problem was is I couldn't maintain any position for an extended period of time. And so I was sitting and then moved to standing and probably said some sort of complaint about my back, about how uncomfortable it was and painful it was, hoping that you would fix it instead of just saying, "Hey, please come help me fix it." And then you looked at me and you said, "Pain is all in your head. Deal with it," is actually, I think, you may have cursed. There may have been profanity involved. And then she might have-

Angie 20:48

Come on

Kevin 20:49

might have kicked me. It's possible. It's possible that she just walked over and pushed me out of the chair, and then pointed at me on the ground. No, none of that happened. But- you are entirely correct that a good aspect of pain is in your head. And amusingly enough, I don't know, two or three weeks before this happened to me, I had listened to an entire podcast on the psychology of pain. And, one of the things that happened in it is one of the hosts was talking about they had done a deadlift and hurt their back, and they went and they saw a doctor to make sure that they didn't, herniate a disc or anything. And they hadn't, and they went back to the gym the next day. They did it with a ridiculously reduced weight relative to what they're used to. But they did it because of exactly what we're gonna wanna talk about- is they didn't want to tell their body, "You're more hurt than you are." Yeah. And yeah, part of that is in your head, because your body wants to freak out and be like, no, you're in an extreme amount of pain." And there is actually something wrong in my lower back, but what level of pain that is, of w- is that a one, is that a nine, is interpreted in my head. And so pain is technically all in your head, but it is also wherever that pain is actually coming from.

Angie 22:06

So yes, the interpretation and per- and pain perception is in your head, and there's literally people out there that don't have pain. There are people out there that do not experience pain. There is a medical condition where people don't experience pain, and it's actually a very dangerous condition, because they could literally put their hand on a hot stove and not know that their skin is burning off, because they can't feel the pain.

Kevin 22:33

So- Yeah, their sensation is the smell of their burning skin-

Angie 22:35

Yeah and

Kevin 22:36

by then, it's probably too

Angie 22:36

late. Ugh. Oh, God, that sounds terrible. So yes, there is a neuroscience behind this, and I think that... I can't remember exactly what I told Kevin, but, I did say something, about how part of the pain is in your head, and that's the part that we have to get over, because it's very important for us to understand that pain is not objective. Pain is very subjective. And it's so funny to me how many people have said to me throughout the years, "Oh, I have a high pain tolerance," as if that's a thing. You just have a different perception of pain, and you have a different way that you're able to push through pain versus maybe other people. And so it's important for us to understand that the pain that you're experiencing is the way that your brain is perceiving it. It is not just a signal of tissue damage. Just because you're having pain doesn't mean that there is excessive amounts of tissue d- damage. It's your brain's best guess about whether a threat exists. So it's this, it's a protective mechanism in the brain. There is likely and usually some sort of tissue damage that s- starts the pain cycle, right? Because there are different, pain fibers that transfer, a signal from the damaged tissue to the brain, and that is a real thing, right? It's, there's something going on in the body that tells the brain something's wrong here. There's a threat here. And so you- your brain, your, nervous system perceives that as pain. it also perceives it as dangerous, which is important because if there is actual tissue damage, then you need to stop doing certain activities because you don't wanna make that damage worse. However, a lot of people can end up in this pain cycle where the pain, the experience of pain is actually much worse than what the tissue damage is, because of the meanings that they have around it or because of the fear that they have around the pain. And also the pain sensation can last longer than the tissue damage itself. And there's actually, again, medical conditions where pain is actually experienced long after the tissues have actually healed. So pain itself is a science, like neuroscience phenomenon. All right? And so the second thing we need to understand is that pain can also be present without significant tissue damage because the nervous system has become sensitized to it. So Kevin's pain was real. It was limiting. it wasn't like, I think that when we say, "Oh, it's all in your head," it just, a lot of people take that as, like meaning, oh, you're just making this up. It's not real. It's fake. No, it's definitely real. It's definitely, it was definitely limiting him in e- literally e- every single activity that he was going through that first week. But part of what was keeping the pain at that level was his nervous system was just so guarded. His nervous system was in high alert mode, and so he was guarding the area and restricting so many of his movements as a protective strategy because... and all of that, m- most of it was happening unconsciously. May- there might have been a, a piece of it that's conscious, but most of that happens at an unconscious level. And so when we went into actually trying to get to the core of Kevin's pain, and w- the things that we're gonna be talking about today with what we actually did, part of my strategy was to help actually improve the area of damage and work on mobility and the strength and those kinds of things, but also on the nervous system's sense of safety, to let the nervous system and the muscles know it's okay. y- you can relax. You don't have to, tense up and guard. it's, it was about restoring that gentle movement so that the body felt safe.

Kevin 26:16

Yeah, which is really trick- tricky because you can't just, I mean- If someone is freaking out over whatever the situation is, like emotionally freaking out, they're very upset about something, walking over to them and telling them to calm down is never a helpful process. So like telling the various muscles around my hip- Oh, just calm down." Like just, oh, if I just sit here and I breathe for a second, I'll be able to relax that muscle. I just... I could. They were so tight, and trying to actively relax them- was not fixing anything. it was having literally the same result of, having somebody coming out of a burning building being like, just take a breath and calm yourself." that's not gonna work.

Angie 26:57

Yeah. And that really highlights the big other, the last thing that we wanna kinda talk about before we get into what we did, which is this fear avoidance trap that so many people fall into. So back pain is one of those things that so many people are scared of, right? Because your back, y- you can't get away from back pain. It's pretty much involved in all of your activities of daily living, whether, r- regardless of what- Way more than you think it is Way more than you think it is, yeah. and regardless of what position you're in, too. And I think that's really the scary part for a lot of people. And so what I often see happening is that runners and people in general, but sp- specifically runners, tend to go in one of two main directions. The first one is that they just push through the pain, and they're like, "Screw that, I'm not letting this limit me. I'm just gonna push through it," whether it's back pain or some other t- type of pain. Or they just try to avoid it completely, and they just, they say, "Okay, I need to rest, and, I have to make sure that this goes away because I don't want this to affect my running long term." But neither of those things are the most effective thing to do, because oftentimes, like if you push through it, that's just going to aggravate not only the tissue damage potentially, but also the nervous system, because the nervous system is already sensitized, and so the pain can be prolonged. But if you stop moving entirely, then that can increase stiffness and weakness in the surrounding musculature, which is also not helpful. And it also confirms to your nervous system that the area is dangerous. you're reinforcing that point of you're right, something's seriously wrong here. And so neither of these things work. And so this is why- The old method of back, back pain recovery, decades ago, several decades ago, I don't wanna say, 20 years ago because I've been doing this for 20 years now, but 50 years ago when someone got hurt, the re- the, prescription was always rest, right? you're, oh, you're on bed rest. Bed rest was the thing that they prescribed to everybody. We now know that is a terrible prescription, especially for back pain, that we need to gently reintroduce movement, and this is pretty much goes for most types of pain unless we're talking about a bone injury. We want to reintroduce movement safely, slowly, effectively, gentle, in a very controlled manner. We don't wanna be at complete rest, and we don't wanna just force everything and push through it. We wanna be somewhere in the middle to allow the tissues... we don't wanna increase tissue damage. We wanna make sure that those tissues are healing and also helping to recalibrate the nervous system in the process to know that it's okay to not be so tense because the nervous system is just tensing the muscles up to try to protect the area. That's its job. And so we have to let the nervous system know it's okay to relax and let go, and that's a big piece of the framework, that we used with Kevin.

Kevin 29:38

But this is why it's super helpful to work with you because you knew how to progress things. this is why what I was doing was not working, 'cause I knew that bridging was not gonna be a bad idea. It was better than absolute rest. Yeah. I was trying to make sure that I was still having some movement, but-

Angie 29:54

Yeah, but, bridging for you was one of the most painful things that you could do at the beginning when you s- first started.

Kevin 29:59

Yeah. I couldn't actually just lay on the ground and pelvically tilt without- Yeah a whole lot of pain, and then trying to take it and do a bridge. I could do an, inappropriate bridge. I could curve my back too much- Inappropriate bridge? and then lift my hips off. if I, anteriorly rotated my pelvis while laying on the ground- then I could bridge- without pain.

Angie 30:16

Yeah.

Kevin 30:17

But I couldn't do a proper bridge.

Angie 30:18

Yeah, because you were shortening your hip flexors, and so that was helping to take the pressure off of your spine. You see- Yeah. I didn't know why it worked- Do you see now why that works?

Kevin 30:25

but I knew that it did.

Angie 30:27

Yeah. But do you see now, based on, what we talked about already, like, why that worked?

Kevin 30:31

Yeah, of course. But, and w- before I started actually getting help from you, I was like, "Oh, s- I'll do some bridges. Oh, doing bridges that way doesn't feel good." "I'll do bridges this way." Yeah. But doing bridges in a way that, that- That I was avoiding the pain was essentially n- not doing bridges.

Angie 30:48

You weren't activating the right muscles that you needed anyway. All right. So let's talk about what we actually did. All right? So now that everyone has a good background of kind of what was going on with Kevin and his back, I do have to add my little medical disclaimer here, is that, everything that we're gonna be talking about today is not a prescription. I'm not your doctor. I'm not your physical therapist. I'm not telling you what to do here. I'm simply telling you what worked for Kevin and the things that we focused on for Kevin and his specific back pain presentation. They are good principles. if you use them, you do so at your own discretion. I highly suggest that if you have back pain, you possibly consider, consider getting it cleared by a medical professional, to make sure that there's not something more serious going on, especially if there's any sort of, loss of bladder control, loss of bowel control, if there's radiation of pain, if there's numbness, if there's significant trauma involved. We need to go make sure that there's nothing really bad going on here, okay? So let that's, let's get that disclaimer out of the way first.

Kevin 31:48

Excellent disclaimer. But if none of those apply to you- if you're working kind of the way I am, is you could point to the activity that you were doing- that brought about the pain, that you can go to positions that change the pain, increase or decrease the pain, certain movements make it feel better than others, then this is probably going to be a good approach for you.

Angie 32:08

Yeah. All right. So the first thing- I'm

Kevin 32:10

not a doctor at all, so I'm just going for it.

Angie 32:12

I'm just going for it. All right. So the first thing that we focused on is mobility, and specifically mobility above the area of pain and below the area of pain. So the important principle that you need to understand is that when a joint is restricted or painful, the body compensates by stealing, essentially stealing mobility from the joints above and below it. if this area doesn't move properly, I've got to get that movement from somewhere, and so that's what was happening with Kevin. And so if the lumbar spine and the SI joint are affected, then oftentimes it will go to the thoracic spine or the hips, or vice versa. if the hips and the thoracic spine are limited, more force goes through the lumbar spine and SI joint, and that's one of the reasons also why those areas tend to get more injuries and more pain. It's because of restrictions in the hip and the thoracic spine. So you can't just fix- That was my

Kevin 33:08

issue that caused the pain.

Angie 33:10

Exactly. And so you can't fix the lower back in isolation. This is one of the biggest mistakes that I see most people making, is that if I have pain in my right knee, I'm going to do right knee exercises to fix it. But you have to address the full chain. So with Kevin's lower back, we had to address above the area of pain and below, so the upper spine, the thoracic spine, and then h- specif- and also his hips. majorly we had to address what was going on in his hips. So if it's the knee, same thing. Above it you have to address the hip, and below it you have to address the foot and the ankle. So your whole body, it's like that wonderful song that we all learned when we were kids, everything is connected. The thigh bone's connected to the- Hip bone Knee bone, right? I forget the

Kevin 33:53

order of it But it's actually not really, 'cause your patella's just free-floating. But that's what the song said.

Angie 33:58

Thank you. Perfect. it depends on what you just define as your knee bone, It could be the femur or the tibia, too, 'cause-

Kevin 34:05

I know. That's- technically it's a joint- Just the fact that- and not a

Angie 34:07

bone

Kevin 34:08

the knee bone- Yeah is part of the song was suggested that maybe it wasn't actually solid anatomy lesson.

Angie 34:14

Yeah. So for Kevin, we, again, we're addressing mobility first, okay? Mobility is your body's available to move. It is decreasing restrictions of movement, whether that comes from tissue restrictions or just, restrictions in your movement patterns, because one of the things that we were talking about with our members today, like inside of our membership, in the workshop, we were talking about movement patterns and how movement patterns just oftentimes get reinforced in the body. you start moving a certain way. Maybe you've been moving that way since you were a kid, since you were a teenager. Maybe you had an injury 20 years ago that changed the way that your body moved, and you've just been moving that way ever since. At some point, that's going to catch up to you, because the joints that movement is supposed to be occurring in aren't doing their job. Other joints are picking up the slack, and so they're, those joints are getting overworked, and those areas of the body are getting overworked. So the thoracic spine in Kevin's specific- situation here, and this is something that's very common for anyone that has low back pain. Oftentimes there's restrictions in the thoracic spine. So the, your spine is separated into three main areas. There's your cervical spine, which is your neck, your thoracic spine, which is your torso, and then your lumbar spine, which is the lower back. And each of the, those areas of the spine have different jobs, and the thoracic spine is designed for rotation. And when it loses that rotational capacity, like if you have restrictions in rotation, then your body compensates by asking your lumbar spine to rotate instead. But the lumbar spine is not designed to rotate. It is designed more for flexion and extension, which is bending forward and bending backwards. The thoracic spine also does that, but not as much, right? And so again, each area of the spine works together and has its own job, and when one person's not doing its job, the other pieces have to come in and pick up the slack. So if we are- Yeah,

Kevin 36:10

but they're not designed to do it. But they're

Angie 36:12

not

Kevin 36:12

So they're picking up slack that they're not really great at doing.

Angie 36:15

Yeah.

Kevin 36:15

They can sorta do it, but y- they really shouldn't be, and so you're having, you're literally fitting a square peg in a round hole- and being like, "Yeah, but that's my plan. That's my plan for life. That's the movement I'm gonna do forever." Yeah. And if you put enough stress on a movement where the wrong muscles, the wrong joints are doing the action- you're gonna get hurt.

Angie 36:37

Yeah, and if it's just like at work, like one of the things I think about is if you work in an office and there are certain people that are supposed to do the mail, and there are certain people that are supposed to talk to clients, and there's s- other people that... everybody has different roles in an office, and you all, if you work in an office or in any sort of company, you know that there are those people that don't pull their weight. And when those people don't pull their weight, the work still has to get done, so oftentimes it falls on you or it falls on somebody else. And if that weight falls on you, then you don't have the full capacity to do your job as well, and then the rest of the stuff that you're supposed to be doing suffers. Or you get it done, and then you go home, and you're completely burnt out and exhausted, and you snap at your family. it's going to play out somewhere in the chain, right? And so the same thing is happening in the body. And so when the lumbar spine is being asked to rotate, which it's not designed to do, it's going to put more wear and tear on that spine. It's going to help, or I'm sorry, it's going to weaken that area because it's j- it's just not designed for that. And so when- Anybody has lower back pain, one of the first things I look at is trying to restore mobility in the thoracic spine, specifically rotation and extension, to help take some of that pressure off the lower back because the lower back's been being asked to do a job that it's not well-suited for. And so if we can try to give some of that stress and give some of that job back to the people that are supposed to be doing it, which is the thoracic spine, that just starts to remove some of that stress and that strain from the lumbar spine, which will allow the tissues to heal.

Kevin 38:10

Okay, so what did we actually do for me that helped my thoracic spine rotate? 'Cause to me I'm like, why don't you just have me sit in a chair and kinda like turn from side to side?" But like we had like specific things.

Angie 38:24

Yeah.

Kevin 38:24

And I feel like lay on the ground with my feet, with my knees bent- and then let my knees drop to the left and the right- is one of the like easiest things that we did.

Angie 38:34

That was one of the first things that we did, to try to get some of that rotation back, and we did that, and I had you h- with your arms out to the side as well so that we were allowing more of that rotation to happen through your thoracic spine. so we're, and then we were also adding breathing into it and head rotation. So when you drop your legs to one side and you rotate your head to the opposite side, you're rotating not only your neck, but the upper thoracic area away from it, so you're trying to get more of that rotation through the upper spine. the other th- If

Kevin 39:06

you, if you rotate your neck, then you're rotating, what's that, cervical spine. Does that then tell your thoracic spine, "Hey, we're doing a rotating thing?"

Angie 39:14

it doesn't tell it, but like the cervical spine's- connected to the thoracic spine, so you're probably- Kind of

Kevin 39:19

encourages?

Angie 39:20

Yeah, you're, you're kicking in like the upper thoracic spine, right? Yeah. And so you're again, you're just, it's everything is connected. we're trying to get everybody on board here, and then we, I was also very, directive I guess is a good word about how to breathe through these movements because breathing is going to not only help your nervous system, it's going to help your tissues relax into some of these movements as well to help, reduce some of that muscle guarding that was going on with you.

Kevin 39:46

Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, that was super annoying.

Angie 39:47

Yeah. I,

Kevin 39:48

I think it was-

Angie 39:49

I know, because runners don't like to do things slowly.

Kevin 39:52

I know. I think it was probably remarkably helpful. Yeah. And trust me, that week I was doing things on my own, I was probably holding my breath for most of it. But then you gave

Angie 40:00

me the- a lot, and, I have to interrupt because a lot of runners do, like a lot of people do, they do hold their breath because there's pain, right? Yeah. And so one of the first, inclinations, one of the first things that we do is hold our breath to try to brace the area, but that's not helpful. Yeah,

Kevin 40:14

you brace because therefore you're gonna hold everything. Yeah. And you gave me very specific breathing patterns to do things, and like breathe in as your legs move this way and breathe- out as you go this way.

Angie 40:26

Yeah.

Kevin 40:28

it just, it made the mobility routine take so long

Angie 40:33

Yeah

Kevin 40:33

which was extra frustrating to me, and I share this hopefully that it connects to some people who are listening also. But then it made the m- mobility routine take so long, and since I try to avoid mobility routines in general, now I'm having this- Which is what

Angie 40:49

led you to this problem

Kevin 40:50

I know. But now I've got this, 30 to 45-minute mobility routine that I'm supposed to, calmly breathe my way through. And for the first two days I was super annoyed about it, and then I just accepted that's just what it is- and it's getting me better.

Angie 41:04

I was about to say, and then you started running and realized, "Oh, wait a second."

Kevin 41:08

I know. it was improving things, but I- Yeah did not make it just... it wasn't an easy thing for me to do- to slow down and calmly breathe through the mobility. Yeah Because I, it doesn't feel like you're doing as much as, going out for a run. I know what I'm doing when I go out for a run. you can check your watch and be like, "These, this is the amount of miles that I've knocked off." Yeah. laying on our garage, moving my legs in various positions as I calmly breathe did not feel like I was doing as much.

Angie 41:36

It didn't feel productive.

Kevin 41:37

In fact, I was in fact doing way more.

Angie 41:39

Yeah. And that's, going back to, again, the mindset of, redefining productivity. redefining what is productive, because by you taking the time to do these mobility things, you were able to actually get out on the road a lot faster and resume getting back to running the way that you wanted to run a lot sooner than you would have if you would've just kept pushing through it and just getting it done versus actually focusing on it.

Kevin 42:01

Yeah. All right. So that's thoracic spine rotation. What else did we do?

Angie 42:04

Yeah. And then thoracic extension, so w- the foam roller we did of, it getting you to extend over the foam roller. Oh. Remember I, when I had you put the foam roller, around your shoulder blades?

Kevin 42:14

Yeah. So this is, was ridiculously hard because I could, with a lot of pain, get into the position the foam roller was under my shoulder blades, but I couldn't... Trying to relax and breathe in that position, because to get there was so uncomfortable for my hips and lower back and everything, and then I couldn't, roll at all as I was on it. So I just had to, be in this remarkably uncomfortable position. It didn't feel like it was doing anything to my thoracic spine-

Angie 42:43

Yeah

Kevin 42:44

because my whole body was tense just to get into it. I can do it now.

Angie 42:49

Yeah.

Kevin 42:49

It just, it took me a few days-

Angie 42:51

Oh, yeah, and you were so annoyed with me about that one. You're like, "What is this even doing?" I could- "I don't even feel this. I can't even relax. What am I supposed to do here?"

Kevin 42:59

Yeah, no. I was- I think what may have been better feedback to my physical therapist at the time is- I don't feel as though I can relax into this position, so I don't think the foam roller's gonna be as effective. Maybe we could try it again tomorrow, I think may have been better feedback. But much like when you walked over and told me it was all in my head and pushed me down, I think I, And kicked you in the

Angie 43:23

shin

Kevin 43:24

I just yelled at you. I think is probably how I handled that.

Angie 43:27

You didn't yell at me. It's just the tone of voice. Kevin never yells. that's not who Kevin is, so don't let him fool you. He's not a yeller. it's just the tone of voice, the annoyance in the voice with certain things, and the shortness of your tone.

Kevin 43:41

Yes. What I should have said is, "Dear love, I'm so tight right now and so tense. Can we maybe try the foam roller again tomorrow?" There

Angie 43:48

you

Kevin 43:49

go. Is what I should

Angie 43:49

have said. All right. So we focused on the area above the spine, and then, or above the lower back, the SI joint, and then we also focused on the area below the joint, which is his hip. So his hip specifically, in internal rotation and external rotation. He also had some flexion issues, which we're gonna be talking about, too. So quick anatomy reminder, the hip is a ball and socket joint, and it's designed for movement in all directions. And so in a lot of runners, and this is what was going on with Kevin, hip internal rotation, which is the, Let's see. Make it s- I can... I'm doing this on camera, so there's a visual here. But those of you that are, like, listening on the podcast, it's to- it's toes in. that's what it is, okay? So you got a ball and socket joint. It's if you were to rotate your leg so that your toe's in, like you were being pigeon-toed. That's internal rotation. And then external rotation is rotating the feet out to the side, like a duck, like walking like a duck. Is that a good description, Kev?

Kevin 44:46

Yep.

Angie 44:46

Okay. And so in most runners, internal rotation is limited, and that's what was going on with Kevin. And this matters because of coupling patterns. And so coupling patterns- are a thing that happens in the hip and in the spine, and this is one of the fundamental things we need to understand with how these injuries happen. So hip flexion, which is bending the knee, like lifting the leg off the ground and bending the knee, t- up towards the ceiling, that is coupled with internal rotation. So if internal rotation is limited, it can also limit hip flexion, which is why with Kevin, when he got into that bottom of his squat, he didn't have the internal rotation that he needed, so he didn't have the hip flexion that he needed. So that flexion needed to move into the lumbar spine, and that's why the spine was taking up some of that flexion movement, because he didn't have that mobility available at the hip. Make sense?

Kevin 45:41

Yeah. Everything being connected is super annoying.

Angie 45:45

So as you run, and you walk, and you squat, your hip should naturally internally rotate during the loading phase, which is when all of your weight is on that leg, okay? So when you're running and you've got all of your late, all of your weight on one leg, that's called the loading phase, and the other leg that's swinging through, that's called swing phase, okay? So when you're in the loading phase, your hip is naturally rotating inward, and then it s- naturally rotates more outward during the push-off phase, okay? So if internal rotation is restricted, then the body compensates. So that could be either twisting through the pelvis and the lumbar spine or by changing the entire movement pattern.

Kevin 46:27

that kinda makes sense, 'cause I tend to, if I don't, if I don't pay attention or I start getting really tired, I land with my toes pointing out.

Angie 46:33

Yeah. And so hip, we, so we really focused a lot on Kevin's internal rotation work. So one of the big things that we did was hip 90/90s, and y- Kevin, you can tell them a little bit about kinda where you were when we started, and then where you were yesterday, because that w- you've made significant improvement in that.

Kevin 46:51

I, that, part of that is the internal rotation, and part of that is just that all the other muscles have started to relax.

Angie 46:57

Yes, for sure.

Kevin 46:58

Cause when we first started, mo- okay, so w- we head out to our garage and Angel's "Okay, just lay down on the floor." Now, her saying, "Lay down on the floor" on day, one, was like a 30-second process. it took a while carefully holding onto things just to lay down on the floor. So- To then she was like, "Okay, now sit with your feet in front of you." My hamstrings are super, super tight. before injury, after injury, I- my hamstrings are super, super tight. So to sit on the floor with my feet out in front of me means I have to put my hands back behind me because I'm making, 120-degree angle. I lean back pretty far. I can't just sit up against a wall with my legs out in front of me. So now bend your knees up in front of you and just sit there. I'm almost... A- as I'm trying to do this, to sit upright with my legs out in front of me and to then bend my knees, I almost fell backwards. I was about to start doing, old-school sit-ups, where, my knees are bent in front of me and I'm laying on the ground. And then you wanted me to let my legs, move side to side. I couldn't move my knees from, both of my l- knees laying towards the left to both my knees lea- leaning towards the right unless I was almost completely laid backwards. I was nowhere near sitting upright, and to get anywhere close to upright, I was pushing with both hands so hard off the ground to try to just not fall backwards. And now, what are we, th- two weeks in? Just over two weeks in? Now I can actually... my restriction is hamstrings, but if I can get into the position where my knees are going over to the right side, I can, without having to put my hands on the ground, I can flip them now so that both legs go over to the right side, and then I can lean forward onto my knee and breathe appropriately as I do it, and almost fall forward onto my knee forward, which is apparently I thought was a hamstring issue, but apparently it was absurd tightness through my hips.

Angie 49:01

Yeah. And so we really worked on that, that was one of the big things that we really worked on, was helping Kevin to start to restore some of that mobility. He's nowhere near where he needs to be yet, but hopefully he's gonna continue working on his mobility and that's gonna help him moving forward.

Kevin 49:18

what's super key here is you've told me for a while that I should do 90/90s, that it will help with my hip mobility.

Angie 49:24

Yeah.

Kevin 49:25

I don't think I was doing them correctly. Because I was just leaning back. Like-

Angie 49:29

Okay

Kevin 49:29

when I would go from on the left side to on the right side, I would just lean really far back to allow my knees to swing through. Because it, it compensated for the tightness through my hips. I just, I couldn't make that motion happen, so I would just lean backwards so that my knees could pass on the way through. So it's so much of this along the way, like every exercise you gave me was like, okay, I get what the exercise is supposed to look like. Now also, where am I supposed to be feeling it? Because I could trick my body into doing the motion-

Angie 50:03

Yeah

Kevin 50:04

by doing other things. That's what I've been doing all along. I don't know when I started squatting incorrectly. It's possible that I've literally never done a correct squat in my life. It's possible that I screwed this up when I started trying to increase weight, and I overcompensated by trying to get deeper with higher weight on the bar. It's possible that I just used to take shallow squats, and now I take deeper squats, and that's when I fixed it. It's possible that having a hernia a few years ago caused the issues. I don't know. Yeah. But I don't squat correctly, and so now trying to squat correctly is a very difficult process 'cause I have to... It takes so much mental focus to just do the movement.

Angie 50:41

All right, and then the third thing that we did for Kevin's mobility was trying to work on releasing the iliopsoas. So we talked already about how the psoas attaches to the lumbar spine, and when it's tight, it's pulling on the lower back. And so we have to be, we had to be really careful here, but I taught Kevin how to do a self-release, on the iliopsoas muscle, because every time I tried to do a manual release on him, he started laughing because te- Kevin is one of the most ticklish humans you'll probably ever meet. And so I tried to release it, and he just couldn't, he couldn't tolerate it.

Kevin 51:17

I tried breathing. it didn't work. It didn't

Angie 51:18

do anything.

Kevin 51:19

And so- I really tried breathing. I tried very calm, focused breathing- Yeah and I was laughing so much that- Oh my

Angie 51:25

God.

Kevin 51:26

Yeah I couldn't even do it for myself, 'cause I had to, calm my nervous system down a little bit before I could even try it on myself.

Angie 51:31

That was just- Yeah, you're a little tense. Yeah. You're a little tense. So I taught him a technique using a softball where he had to lay on the softball. But you have to be very careful, and I'm not gonna go into detail about this, specific technique because it can be dangerous, if you don't get it right because there's a lot of stuff in the lower abdomen, that can be a problem. So basically we did some soft tissue release on the iliopsoas as well. And so if that's something that you think you might need, I would highly recommend seeing a practitioner, a physical therapist that's skilled in that area. or if you wanted to look up your own videos on YouTube or something like that. I don't want to, really talk too much about that because, there's a bunch of nerves and blood flow issues and stuff that can happen in there, if you don't get it right.

Kevin 52:16

Yeah, 100%. Look up a YouTube video, but it's not Angie's.

Angie 52:20

It's not gonna be mine.

Kevin 52:22

that is the answer to that question. Yeah. All right. It's, it's... The problem is it's painful. doing it correct is gonna be uncomfortable- and doing it wrong is gonna be uncomfortable. Yeah. And so it's gonna be tough to tell that you're doing it wrong. So that is probably one where you actually need a PT to- Yeah

Angie 52:34

set this stuff up for you. I think that it's definitely g- best un- under supervision. and if you are in our membership, I will be posting a video of specifically what we did w- with Kevin. but again, it's always, at y- at your own, use at your own discretion. so the thing-

Kevin 52:47

Yeah, and I saw that video also. That is a members only, 'cause it's more of like a OnlyFans kind of video, so maybe- we keep that in our members only area.

Angie 52:55

I am gonna laugh so hard if we get, 20 new members this week because you just said that. So the key to, that we need to remember is that the goal when we do soft tissue release, a lot of people think that they're, like, breaking up tissue and they're improving the length of the muscle. That's not what we're going for. What we're actually going for is what's called neuromuscular inhibition. It's helping the- psoas and those tight, overactive muscles let go and learn how to relax so that the pelvis can find a more neutral position before your different movement begins. Because the muscles just get tight, and they get overactive, and they don't know how to relax. And so part of the soft tissue release that we do is really, restricting blood flow to those muscles to help the muscles actually just relax.

Kevin 53:43

Yeah, I was doing soft tissue release in the week I was treating myself. I was just on the complete other side. I was rolling a lacrosse ball around on my butt.

Angie 53:52

Which is not bad either, And that's definitely s- a technique that I use with a lot of people. and for you too, that can also be helpful. And, doing soft tissue work in the back because th- your glutes were also very tight, so that is also a helpful thing. just everything was

Kevin 54:05

so tight

Angie 54:07

at that point in time that- because your body is typically more tense. you have overreactive muscles, I would say. your body's natural inclination is to, tighten up to protect the area, and that's how a lot of people- It was my mind's natural inclination. But that's how a lot of people are wired. there's nothing wrong with that. It's just important to know that, all right? All right, so that was part one. That was mobility. I'm, I don't even know, since we're, like, recording on Zoom how long this episode is, so we're gonna just apologize in advance if this kind of goes longer, but I think that it's still helpful. so I guess you guys could always put us on 1.25 speed if you want to. Sure, we could. okay. The second thing that we focused on with Kevin was motor reprogramming. So mobility is really only half of the equation Mobility is restoring that normal, natural, gentle, available, usable range of motion. But if your nervous system doesn't know how to use that range of motion, doesn't know how to control movement in that new range, it's going to revert back to the compensation pattern that it already knows. And so what we have to do is what's called motor reprogramming or motor control to teach the body and teach the brain new movement habits, because a lot of times we've developed these dysfunctional movement patterns through lots of different reasons. Like Kevin said, Kevin asked me this question and I don't really know the answer to it, which is, have I always squatted this way? And I'm like, "I don't know." maybe. there, there might be, you might have had a dysfunctional squat pattern for, since you were a teenager or since you were in your 20s or who knows, and maybe the hernia made it worse. Or maybe you were good before and then the hernia caused this problem. Or who knows what causes these things. different dysfunctional movement patterns can happen because you're sitting a lot. when you're very sedentary, your hip flexors get tight, and so then if you lose mobility and you lose range of motion in the hips, again, other things always pop in to compensate. So we have to-

Kevin 56:04

I think it made sense also that this happened over the summer. 'Cause I sit more often over the summer. as a teacher, I'm up and walking all day long.

Angie 56:11

Yeah.

Kevin 56:11

I sit more over the summer. But, Interesting a thing that I wanted to talk about on this motor reprogramming is- Yeah our body defaults to what it used to do. this is when the last time we moved, and we moved a long time ago, but I remember driving home from work, I turned the wrong direction- because I was going to our old house. it was like when... No, you don't live there anymore, but it's what your brain has done, and things like driving home you do on autopilot. Yeah. you're paying attention enough that you're following the rules of the road, you're not hitting other cars, but you're doing a lot of it on autopilot. Most of your body's motions happen on autopilot. That's why when we opened the e- the episode, you were talking about that your body is responsible for so many movements Not until you really think about it. Or that you've hurt your back and you're like, "Oh, God, my body's involved in everything." Because you do so many of these things without thinking about it. And that's why you have to do this careful, actual appropriate motor reprogramming- which is so hard because it's teaching your body to do something in a way that it has not done possibly ever.

Angie 57:14

Yeah, and the other important thing to point out here, too, is the difference between how you're actually moving and how you think you're moving. And this is a big piece, that Kevin learned yesterday when we started filming him doing his squat, and I started to show him because he watched the video and was like, "That's not what I'm... That's not what it feels like I'm doing. I fee- feels like I'm doing it the right way." And that's because he's, his brain, he's been doing it for so long this way that his brain has encoded his current move- or his previous movement pattern as normal. That's just the normal way. Of course I'm doing a squat the right way. I've been squatting since I was 14 years old. I've been doing this forever. You're an experienced runner, like, all of these things. But just because you feel like it's the normal thing doesn't mean that there aren't dysfunctional movement patterns happening under the surface.

Kevin 58:05

Yeah, literally the first time... Yesterday we were doing a bunch of filming, which was super helpful. But when I first got out and you were like, "All right, let's watch you do a squat, an unweighted squat."

Angie 58:16

Yeah.

Kevin 58:16

And I first went down and you were like, "You moved your knees." "What do you mean I moved my knees?" You're like, "Your first thing you did- Oh, yeah is to bend your knees. I want the first thing you do is to put your butt out behind you." And so then I, I tried to squat, and I just, froze in place. I'm like, "How do I squat that my- butt moves first?" I'm like... So then I, I had to close my eyes and focus so much to try to get the right part of my body moving correctly.

Angie 58:40

Yeah.

Kevin 58:40

And as soon as I wasn't thinking about it and I tried to squat, knee shot forward again. it takes so much thought to do the thing. Yeah. It's exhausting. I'm still doing air squats. I can definitely lift more than that.

Angie 58:54

Yeah.

Kevin 58:54

But I don't know if I can lift more than that while I'm concentrating so much that joints are moving in the correct directions.

Angie 59:00

Yeah. And so it's important for us to understand that this isn't... there's nothing wrong with Kevin, it's just the way that this movement pattern has been stored in his nervous system. Because your brain, your nervous system always wants to put as much as possible on autopilot, like Kevin said, because the less you have to think, the less decisions you have to make in your life. That's why it felt, it feels so exhausting for him to learn this new movement pattern, because he is trying to go against his stored motor programs. He's going against the body's- autopilot setting that it's just been doing for who knows how long, possibly for decades. And so it becomes very labor-intensive and attention-intensive when you're trying to do these things because you're atten- you're essentially trying to break a habit that has been there for who knows how long, and that habit has become encoded as the default. So you are now trying to essentially install a new program, which takes a lot of memory. It takes time, it takes space, just like it would in, in a computer. And so when you... And this is what, the other reason why j- a little bit of cuing isn't just going to automatically fix the problem. Like me saying, "Oh, stick your hips back instead of putting your knees forward." And then Kevin says, "Oh, really? That's all I have to do?" it doesn't work that quickly, right? Because there's a whole new motor program that he has to build and then encode, and then he has to do that enough so that the body now realizes that's the new default program versus the old way.

Kevin 1:00:31

And it's a movement that you're not used to. So once I finally realized, oh, put my hips back behind me, then I overcompensated and just I tilted my back.

Angie 1:00:39

And tilted the pelvis, Exactly. So that you, when I said stick out your butt, your first reaction was to arch your lower back to, to stick out your butt, which is not what I wanted.

Kevin 1:00:48

Yeah. And I'm still working on- my default to stick out my butt to actually move the right things. Yeah. And it is very difficult, and I've been working on that for, a week. And I still struggle to make it move correctly,

Angie 1:01:03

which is why- But

Kevin 1:01:03

you're

Angie 1:01:03

getting... But are you getting better?

Kevin 1:01:05

I'm getting better. Yeah. But that's also why videotaping or having you watch me, because- It feels like I'm doing it, and I've been working on this for a week, and so I'm like, "Okay, I'm doing it better." But if I film myself I'm like, "Oh, wait, I'm still doing it not right." Yeah. Better, but not correctly. Yeah. So it's, it's frustrating.

Angie 1:01:26

Yeah.

Kevin 1:01:27

It's humbling is what it is.

Angie 1:01:28

It's humbling, yeah. so the key... So I 100% agree with what Kevin just said. If you aren't working with a professional that understands movement, film yourself and start with that. Start with filming yourself and then watching that video back and seeing, what does your movement actually look like? Start looking for these things. Do I have an excess amount of curvature in my lower back? D- is my pelvis tilting forward? Is it t- tucking under? these are some of the things that you can start looking at. And then w- from there when you start to bring that awareness, one of the first things I had Kevin do as far as movement reprogramming was learning how to find a neutral spine. Because-

Kevin 1:02:07

Which I didn't know what that was. I did not know what that was. You said, "Just go to a neutral spine." Yeah. I'm like, "Yeah, okay."

Angie 1:02:13

and I'm so glad that you said that because most people don't know what that is. Most people don't... N- not only do they not know it, they've probably never experienced it because most people tend to live their lives either in an anterior pelvic tilt, which is that tilt forward. W- and s- this is especially true for women and girls because w- like a lot of women, they tilt their hips forward so that they get their butt to stick back out, and they also stick their chest out because when they're teenagers they wanna look good in a bikini or whatever it is, right? And so they're doing all these weird like lum- like spine positioning. and they don't actually know what it feels like to go neutral. Some people are more a posterior pelvic tilt where they flatten that back out and kinda tuck the tush under. And so a lot of people don't understand what a neutral pelvis even is, and so this is one of the first things that I helped Kevin find. So for you guys that are listening To find neutral spine, what often what I'll have people do is, do an excessive pelvic tilt forward and then an excessive pelvic tilt backward, and then s- try to find a somewhere in the middle. so Kevin, what was that like for you to figure out?

Kevin 1:03:15

It was awful. It was so frustrating.

Angie 1:03:18

Yeah. And the first- Because- The other thing that I also will say too is the progression of it is important also. So I started with Kevin doing this on the ground, like lying on his back with his knees bent, and then trying to figure that out because then he at least has the feedback of the ground. you feel your back if your back is flattening against the ground or not. Then we moved to sitting, then we moved to standing so that he could start to find neutral spine in different positions.

Kevin 1:03:43

Yeah, that's why, just laying on my back and pelvic tilts are helpful 'cause I'm like, "Okay, these are the muscles that I need to use."

Angie 1:03:49

Yeah.

Kevin 1:03:49

But to stand up and then go to neutral spine feels like I'm excessively, what, posteriorly rotated. Yeah, because you're- It feels like I'm gonna fall over backwards.

Angie 1:04:00

because you're used to being more anterior rotated.

Kevin 1:04:04

Yeah. Yeah. And nothing about it feels neutral. It feels like I'm squeezing my glutes continuously- the entire time, and that it's gonna be difficult to breathe.

Angie 1:04:13

Yeah. e-

Kevin 1:04:14

everything about it feels so remarkably uncomfortable. And I got to it, and, 'cause you had me go, excessively anterior then excessively posterior and then try and find neutral. And you're like, "Yeah, that, that's neutral." And I'm like, this is, none of this is comfortable." it felt like I was straining to be in that position. And I assume at some point I'll be able to be in that position and not feel uncomfortable. Yeah. that could actually be a normal resting position.

Angie 1:04:41

Yeah, that's the goal for sure. the other things that we did, are to really help improve the hip internal rotation in functional position, so not just internal rotation mobility, which was important for us to start with, but also learning how to control the internal and external rotation of the hip when he is, was in a standing position. So that's when I had you start, starting to do, the airplane movements, Kevin- Yeah where you were standing on one leg and opening the hip, to the side, opening up the hip and then coming back down. And one of Kevin's compensation patterns, because he didn't have that strength and control at the hip, was he was again twisting more through the spine.

Kevin 1:05:16

Yeah. Yeah, again, I thought I was doing it correctly- Yeah until you watched.

Angie 1:05:21

and- Or- and also until you saw yourself. again- Yeah that's where the video really helped. 'Cause I think that when it's not just me watching and cuing, which can be helpful, but it's also when you're able to see yourself, you're like, "Oh, wow, that doesn't look right." 'Cause, part of your brain's probably "Yeah, does Angie really know what she's talking about? I'm doing this right. It feels fine in the spine." But then when you see it yourself- None of it

Kevin 1:05:41

feels fine.

Angie 1:05:42

But when you see it yourself you're like, "Oh, okay, now I get it." And then you were like, "Oh, I need that muscle to pull, not to push," and I'm like, "Yes, exactly," and then you were able to do it a lot better.

Kevin 1:05:53

yeah. So the benefit of having you, and, this is a benefit for people who are in our team also is when you have exercises you video yourself. So you could watch you do it repeatedly- Yeah but then you get a video of yourself so that you can compare the two of them. Because I can watch you do it, and then I can do it myself and be like, all right, I knew when I first started that it was not at all what you were doing, but I couldn't even figure out how to make my body move the way that yours was moving. And I'm like, am I not... I- is it, a limit in mobility, or am I just not using the right muscles? And it, none of things were moving correctly and, it's, the, having the video of myself really brought awareness of which parts weren't moving. But yeah, I would have... I'm always gonna try and overcompensate and figure out, how can I get close to that thing? And that's- that was the problem is I'm trying to, I don't know, impress you that I can get the movement correct, but I wasn't getting the movement correct. I was just, I was faking correct movement, and that's not- Yeah it's not helpful at all.

Angie 1:06:55

Yeah, and a- and also rushing through it, too. And, this is not just you, but this is, a lot of my patients. And, the patient I was working with this morning was doing the same thing. I'm like, "Slow down. Slow down." He was just trying to move through a- and get the exercise done, but he wasn't getting good contractions when he was doing that.

Kevin 1:07:12

that's where you telling me to breathe is a All the exercises, and this is part of my issue that I have with yoga, and I will make this a very short rant. But I don't, I If I breathe slowly, I breathe really slowly. So if a yoga teacher starts with cuing of take a deep breath- and now exhale, but I haven't finished my deep breath. if that's the cue, take a deep breath- and now exhale, and now take another deep breath. I'm like- Yeah you are hyperventilating over there. that i- that pacing is off for me.

Angie 1:07:41

Yeah.

Kevin 1:07:42

And so now when you're like, "No, but breathe slowly as you do the exercises"- it's gonna take me a couple of minutes to do 10 exercises.

Angie 1:07:50

Yeah.

Kevin 1:07:51

And that's exhausting.

Angie 1:07:53

and that's okay. because that's what you need right now.

Kevin 1:07:56

But that's the key-

Angie 1:07:57

Yeah

Kevin 1:07:58

is having you be able to say, "And that's okay."

Angie 1:08:01

And that's okay. Yeah. And then the final thing is, that I'll mention with the movement reprogramming is fixing his squat, right? and really understanding what his spine was doing in the squat, which we've already talked about, but then also what he needed to do to fix that. And part of that means finding that neutral spine, squatting down to the point where he could maintain that neutral spine. And as soon as that, that pelvis started to tuck under, he came back up. Like squatting down as far as you can with the neutral spine, and then coming right back up. Because if you are go- going down into that movement pattern where that pelvis tucks under, you're just reinforcing the ne- the dysfunctional movement pattern, right? So it's learning how to control that movement while maintaining good alignment, only doing what you're currently able to do, and then coming back out of it. And then you s- you start to build strength. You start to build range in, into, in that movement. And then your body's going to be able to relax and be able to maintain that movement into greater depths.

Kevin 1:08:59

Yes. So at the start of 2026 we said, "This is the year I'm gonna get jacked." Instead it hurt my back. But now I can actually, I'm working on being able to squat correctly- which is probably gonna help a whole bunch of other movements.

Angie 1:09:11

And it's- and you're also going to be able to squat more.

Kevin 1:09:13

Yeah.

Angie 1:09:14

Because the way that you were doing it, at this point, the way that you were showing me, like there was gonna be a for sure a limit, and we found one. Yeah,

Kevin 1:09:21

we found the limit on that one. Yeah.

Angie 1:09:23

We found

Kevin 1:09:23

one. Which is weird because I have squatted- Definitely more. Yeah Like substantially more than what I was squatting when I hurt my back. But that goes back to where we started, where I was doing all of this under a lot of fatigue.

Angie 1:09:34

Yeah, exactly. All right, the third thing that we focused on, okay, so thing number one was mobility, thing number two was motor reprogramming, and thing number three that was, it's a very important principle when it comes to rehab, and this is a big thing that I see so many people getting wrong because it's counterintuitive, but it's one of the things that really helps here. so I mentioned before how a lot of times when people have pain, they either push through that pain or they try to completely avoid it, and neither of those things are helpful. So what I taught Kevin, which is one of, one of the things I teach all of my clients, is to gently and slowly move into the pain. What that means is we move to the place where that pain starts, where you're on the edge of that pain, and then you pull away from it. You move into it. So it's all about finding the edge of the pain. Move slowly and intentionally with control, with breath, and find that s- that spot or that movement that produces the pain, and then come away from it. So the whole goal is not to keep pushing through, because if you are pushing through it, basically you're telling your nervous system, like your nervous system oftentimes will tighten up when you're trying to push through it, which is counterproductive. So we gotta get to the edge. We teach our nervous system, "This is okay. You're safe here. Nothing's wrong here." And then, we're gonna, we're gonna relax a little bit. We're gonna pull back. It's everything is okay. See, look, you thought you were gonna have to t- tense up. You thought you were gonna have to protect me, and then we just back away. It's all good. It's all good, right? And so we hold at that edge. We breathe through it to let the nervous system understand that you're safe here, and then we pull back. And as you do that, you will continue to usual- you will continue to get more and more range, maybe not all at once, maybe not all in the same exact session, but the more you practice that, you're gonna be able to go deeper into that range with less pain.

Kevin 1:11:28

Yeah, this is like straight psychology. This is exposure therapy.

Angie 1:11:31

Yeah.

Kevin 1:11:32

if you have a phobia, y- you don't... If you have a fear of heights, you don't go skydiving on day one.

Angie 1:11:39

No, thank you. What? No, thank you. Yeah. I said, "No, thank you."

Kevin 1:11:43

Yeah, like it doesn't seem like a great idea. But like on day one, if you have a fear of heights and you wanna jump off of the high dive at the pool, on day one you go to the pool. Like you see that there's a high dive. Because if you have a fear of heights, you're already gonna freak out, but the just the fact that you, "Oh, yeah, look at that. There's a ladder over there."

Angie 1:12:01

Yeah.

Kevin 1:12:01

And then maybe you get to the point where you can put your hand on the ladder, but you're not even climbing the ladder. Everything gets you to the point where yeah, this is scary, but I'm in a fearful environment, but I'm still safe. Like you never just are like, "Oh, you have a fear of heights? I'm going to drag you to the top of the high dive and shove you off." that's not a great approach.

Angie 1:12:19

Really? if you're scared of roller coasters, the approach is not to take your five-year-old daughter on Thunder Mountain when she's scared? Oh, was that just some, is that just something that happened to me?

Kevin 1:12:30

I don't know. I took you on

Angie 1:12:32

roller coasters- no several years ago No, this is, but this is my dad. This is what happened to me. This is what my dad did, and then I was deathly afraid of roller coasters for my entire life until I went on a roller coaster with you, basically.

Kevin 1:12:44

Yeah, I know, and I was worried that we had done that to our own daughter when we took her on-

Angie 1:12:48

Slinky

Kevin 1:12:48

Dog Slinky Dog. I know. And she was freaking out halfway through.

Angie 1:12:50

She was freaking out, but she wants to go back, so we're good.

Kevin 1:12:53

I know. But that, that's what it is, is- Yeah you can't overexpose. that's just gonna be too much, and it's going to lead to, in your case, fear of roller coasters for a long time.

Angie 1:13:04

Yeah.

Kevin 1:13:04

But in the case of the body, if you give it too much exposure, it's gonna freak out- Yeah and all of the muscles around it, like everything's gonna get so tense. You're going backwards then. Yeah. that was the problem right after I hurt myself, is all of the muscles were so tense that it was like, what is the actual issue going on? I didn't know. You did. Yeah. But I had no idea because everything felt tense. All. So I wasn't even sure what to deal with because everything was so exposed. If you're like, "Oh, no pain, no gain. Push through everything," you're just gonna get to a place where everything is now pain. Yeah. but complete avoidance is a terrible aspect also, which again-

Angie 1:13:40

Yeah is one of the reasons- and that goes back, and that goes back to the story that you told earlier about the podcast that you were listening to of "Oh, okay, I'm good. I don't have a herniated disc. I can go back into the gym." a lot of times when you know that there's not, like it's not as bad as your brain is making it out to be, then you can push through certain things knowing that, we're gonna be okay here. and so I always put a threshold on it. I always tell my patients, "I don't want you ever above a five out of 10 when we're doing this type of thing." there's some people that come in at a six, a seven, an eight out of 10. th- that's different stories. that's not where Kevin was in this. Kevin was like, I was like, "Okay, what we're gonna do is we're gonna push to the edge of the pain. I don't want it increasing above a five, never above a five. We wanna kinda keep it where it is or have it decrease." And then the same thing applied, when it came to Kevin's running, 'cause that's another piece that we really wanna talk about as well, is how do we know when it's okay to run? And that's one of the big rule of thumbs that I keep with Kevin, with myself, with a lot of people that I work with, is really understanding, okay, is running going to make the pain worse? And this is one thing that- like even, we work- we've done with our cross-country runners and other things, because- There, we as runners want to be active. We wanna be out on the roads, we wanna be doing things. We don't wanna just, rest and not do anything. And completely resting and not doing things is oftentimes unhelpful, except in the case of a bone stress injury. I will say that o- over and over again. If you have a stress fracture or any sort of potential bone stress injury, that is definitely the time that you need full and complete rest. and that doesn't mean you can't cross-train. you might still be able to, depending on what part of your body is involved, you might still be able to ride a bike or go swimming or doing other things. there's ways to stay active. but impact activities are a definite no when it comes to bone stress injuries. But with Kevin and getting back to running, you wanna tell, you wanna kinda tell, like, how we approached this?

Kevin 1:15:34

I just wanted-

Angie 1:15:34

I feel like I've been doing a lot of talking.

Kevin 1:15:36

I just wanted to go run. Yeah. But it, to me, this was very similar in coming back from hernia surgery, is running post-hernia surgery hurt And so I just kept run-walking. And I would do it over and over, and eventually, And I would never come back and be like, "Oh, man, I feel good." I was better than when I left, but it was so frustrating because I just wanted to go out and run. And running was uncomfortable, so I kept taking walking breaks. Every time the pain would elevate, I'd be like, "Oh, it hurts" almost immediately on my first running step. And it finally got to a point where you were like, "Just try running for a couple of minutes- Yeah and see if it relaxes." And so what was happening to me when I s- first started running, I started too soon, and then I took a few more off days, and then we started working together. And then I... When I started running, the pain was not immediate and shooting, and it was... Like, it was uncomfortable- but it wasn't throwing my running form off.

Angie 1:16:36

Yeah.

Kevin 1:16:36

When I was trying to treat myself and then be like, "Oh, no, I can do it. I could go for a run," I was, like, awkwardly hobbling, putting... I was landing hard on my left leg, and then, swinging the right leg through, but, winging it out to the side. it wasn't... I was not moving correctly. When we started working together, after just a few days, I could go off and easily run. I was running on flat ground. I was running my normal loops. I, I was making sure that what I was on wasn't, pitched awkwardly off to the side. You know how, the road, tilts successively so that it can drain properly? Yeah. I was making sure that what I was on was pretty much flat.

Angie 1:17:14

yep.

Kevin 1:17:15

And I kept it shorter than my cardio said. I kept it as, as much as, I knew was the appropriate thing to do- not as much as my brain wanted to do, not as much as- Yeah my breathing was gonna allow, but as much as, my back was actually gonna allow.

Angie 1:17:29

Yeah, and I think that's important, is understanding that it is important to sometimes pull back. It doesn't mean that you have to rest completely, but we cut it. you don't, you're not doing your full load, especially at the beginning. The first couple of runs out, it was the instructions were essentially, go out and do half, at least, no more than half of what you normally would go out and run. So for Kevin, your typical weekday run is probably around seven-ish miles, right? Seven, eight miles. Yep. And so at the beginning, it was like, go out and run three miles, but see how you feel in that first mile." I always tell people, "Check the first mile. If the pain is increasing, you stop. If the pain is, the same, not really too bad, it's a d- more of a discomfort but not a pain, you can keep going." but then we... He cut it, had, shorter runs the first couple of runs back, and then the pain was fine. And then we always checked with- How did you feel on the run? And then how did you feel after the run as well? Because that also matters. Because if there's an excess amount of pain after the run, that's a sign from your body that you did too much, okay? So we always had to manage progression of things based on how he responded both during and after the run.

Kevin 1:18:37

Yeah, and I was never in pain after. Yeah. I always felt tightened afterwards. Tight,

Angie 1:18:40

yeah.

Kevin 1:18:40

I was always like, "I should go back and do some more mobility afterwards-" Yep because it felt, just 'cause the muscles were tired, so then you get the fatigue and then everything just tightens up to try and make sure that I'm not gonna hurt myself. but it, it never brought pain from the running. Yeah.

Angie 1:18:55

Yeah, so that's how we d- how we handled it, okay? those were the three big main things that we did. That's how, we progressed his running. and then within two weeks he's back to running essentially seven miles per day. He did a 14-mile run this weekend with no pain, and he's feeling good. you tell them in your words, like how you're feeling right now. 'cause you're not 100% normal at this point, but you're pretty darn close, right?

Kevin 1:19:22

it causes no... I don't feel my back when I run-

Angie 1:19:25

Yeah

Kevin 1:19:25

at all. I can still feel it, like, when I first wake up in the morning. I wake up stiff. I wake up a little, achy in my back. But it goes away relatively quickly. If I sit for a very long period of time, but I feel like that's the case for most people. If you sit- th- for a couple of hours-

Angie 1:19:42

Because

Kevin 1:19:43

think about- it's uncomfortable

Angie 1:19:44

think about what's happening at your hips, right? Your hips, like those hip flexors are tightening and they're shortening, and that's putting pressure on the front of your spine. Now you understand why sitting for excessive amounts of time is problematic.

Kevin 1:19:56

I know. Now I have to go do a psoas release, and I'm not really excited about it.

Angie 1:20:00

and then we also talked about moving forward too, which we don't have time to get into today, but maybe we'll do another episode about that, of like when Kevin does do, his longer runs, what kind of mobility exercises should he be doing throughout the run to make sure that those muscles are not all tightening up and he stays loose.

Kevin 1:20:18

Yeah. And I'm gonna give that an attempt this weekend, so we'll see how that goes. Yeah.

Angie 1:20:21

We'll see how it goes. All right, you guys. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm gonna go ahead and say it early, happy early birthday, Kevin. I know you love all of the attention, and by that- I do? By that I mean he does not at all. But this episode is being released on July 9th, so your birthday's a couple days away. and I just wanna say happy early birthday, and I hope that, you're feeling better and all is well, and you can do some fun running adventure on your birthday. Might n- even if it's not exactly what you had in mind, 'cause Kevin- I- loves to do very interesting things on his birthday.

Kevin 1:20:54

I'm going to attempt what I have in mind and be happy with whatever the results are.

Angie 1:20:58

There we go. All right, you guys. Thank you so much for joining us. If you found this podcast helpful, we would love it so much and appreciate if you could leave us a review on Spotify, make a comment, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, share the episode with a friend. you could also check out our YouTube channel, because we're gonna be uploading a recording of this so you could watch us on Zoom as well. and as always, thanks for joining us. This has been the Real Life Runners podcast, episode number 469. Now get out there and run your life.