468: Real Life Lessons from Western States 100

Every year, the Western States 100 captures the attention of the ultrarunning world. It's a race filled with incredible performances, heartbreaking setbacks, unforgettable comebacks, and stories of grit that go far beyond who crosses the finish line first.

But you don't have to run 100 miles (or even want to!) to learn from it.

In this episode, Kevin shares some of the biggest stories from this year's race, including course records, first-time champions, and legendary runners who didn't finish. Together, we explore what these moments reveal about running, resilience, and ourselves. Whether you're training for your first 5K, chasing a marathon PR, or simply trying to stay consistent, the lessons are surprisingly universal.

At the end of the day, racing isn't just about the clock. It's about choosing curiosity over certainty, courage over perfection, and discovering who you become when things don't go according to plan. This episode is an invitation to redefine success, embrace the unpredictable nature of running, and remember why you started in the first place.

02:01 What Is Western States

04:06 Weather and Course Challenges

05:24 Course Records Shock

08:48 DNFs and Big Lessons

11:54 Jim Walmsley DNF

17:24 Kilian Jornet Curiosity

22:11 Hans Troyer Icarus

26:37 Debrief and Hernia Story

27:49 Racing With Hernia

30:02 Curiosity Over Certainty

30:54 Winner Comeback Story

32:31 Adam Peterman Rebuild

36:44 Molly Seidel Grit

39:38 Why Finish Matters

43:42 Long Haul Lessons

45:44 Bronco Billy Redefines

50:28 John Kelly Perspective

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Transcript

0:00

So it is the end of June, and if you are a big running, ultra running, trail running nerd like Kevin is, that only means one thing It's Statesmas. It means that you are glued to your computer the last weekend of June watching the Western States 100. So today we're talking all about the Western States 100 and how even if you're not running 100 miles, even if you're running a 5K, less than a 5K, or somewhere in between a 5K and 100 miles, or maybe even more than 100 miles, who knows, there's so many lessons that we as real-life runners can take away from this past weekend's events. So stay tuned What's up, runners? Welcome to the show today. It's Statesmiss, is it? Statesmiss. Is that... Okay. Did you just make that up, or is that like a thing? No, that's a thing. I definitely did not make that up. Okay. And so Kevin is going to be leading the majority of this episode because Kevin woke up early. He set an alarm. I didn't wake up that early because it starts at 5:00 California time, which is like 8:00 our time. But the coverage starts at 7:30 our time. So I was up and ready to go so that I could actually see everybody come off the starting line and mill about before the starting line and all the things. All the things. and where is this coverage located? 'Cause it's not on TV. it's on YouTube. It's on YouTube. Yeah. So they're like live streaming on YouTube? Yeah, there's actually three consecutive live streams- 'cause there's a time limit of how long YouTube will let you just stream one event. So it goes from one feed to the next. I caught all three. Perfect. So Kevin knows everything that happened. I, it was funny 'cause for the most part, like- The, almost the whole day on Saturday you were over by your computer just hanging out, watching- I, I- what was going on. I w- Foldin' some laundry. The, sometimes the computer went with you. I was trying to be productive. Yeah. But you let me just hang out at my computer for a, hours. because as you guys just heard, he referred to it as Statesmas. it, this was a very exciting day in the Brown household for Kevin Brown. So for those of you that don't really know what we're talking about, let's set the stage a little bit. Let's explain what is the Western States 100, and why is this such a big deal? So the Western States 100 is the world's oldest 100-mile trail race. It's a point to point. It's 100.2 miles through the Sierra Nevada mountains in California. There's, 18,000 feet of climbing and 23,000 feet of descent. You start at, 8,000 6,000 feet, and you climb way up, and it's crazy. You end running around a loop of a track at Placer High School. It starts at Olympic Valley where the Olympics were held in 1960. it's a historic course. you travel through, old mining towns from, the California 49ers. some of the little itty-bitty- Like the gold rush? yeah. these towns existed from the gold rush. The trails existed because they were actually mining trails. well before the race started, there was a horse race that went on it. It was the Tevis Cup, which still takes place, the following weekend, I believe. and the race originated because a guy was participating in the Tevis Cup, and his horse went lame or I forget the exact details to it, but he was like, "Okay, I'm still going to compete. I'll just do it on foot." And- I'm just gonna race the horses. Yeah. And that- Yeah that began the thing. He's still there. He sounds like an ultra runner. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't he? Okay, so es- His name's Gordy. Essentially Western States became the Super Bowl of ultra running essentially, right? it's like- Would you say that in, the United States or in the world? in the w- 'cause you know much more about the ultra running community than I do. Okay, so it's the oldest in the world. In the United States everyone's gonna call it the Super Bowl. If you're over in Europe, people are gonna say UTMB, which is, the other huge race if you're Like, for professionals, there's, two races that are so stacked in depth, and UTMB, that is in France- In the Alps, right? and Italy and Switzerland because it passes through all three count- countries- either as it, loops around Mont Blanc. But it's the Alps, right? It's the Alps. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so this year The weather cooperated, right? And so this was the big thing is that a lot of times, I think the average temperature of Western States is, in the high 80s or even the low 90s, right? Yes, generally the 90s. And so this year it was in the 70s, like the low 70s. And obviously it depends on if you're in the valley or if you're up on the mountain, and there's, major temperature changes. And so that's another one of, one of the really big challenges of this race is the temperature changes that you have to go through as you are running through th- these 100 miles in the mountains. 'Cause there's hot, then there's really hot, and then there's really cold, too, 'cause you were telling me at the starting line, people were really bundled, and there were, like, 50 mile an hour winds. there was a lot going on. Yeah, it was like 50s with 50 mile an hour winds, so with the wind chill it was in the 30s. And then as you go through, these canyon parts where y- it runs through the canyons along the American River, it can, like... it bakes in the canyons. So on days where it's 90, it feels like it's 110 in the canyons. On this day, it wasn't really baking, so it felt like it was, like, 80 in the canyons, and that- that's what they were considering, a very cool year. So everybody was so excited that there was just gonna be, like, these amazingly fast times from the- leaders. And we'll We'll talk about the leaders and the people who won because that's an awesome story. There's a lot of other stories I wanna dive into, too. And so the spoiler alert of all of it is that Vincent Boullard, did I say his name- Nailed it of France? you can make it super French and make it Vincent. Vincent B- Boullard of France won the men's race, in a course record. So he finished 100 miles in 13 hours and 46 minutes and 15 seconds, and he broke the previous record by 23 minutes. And then also on the women's side, a woman named Jen Lichter won the women's race, also setting a course record. 15 hours and 28 minutes. She broke Courtney Dauwalter's record, which is crazy, by only 85 seconds. if you think about it, that's a minute... Less than a minute and a half over 100 miles. Okay, so the progression of the records is bonkers. Okay, I agree, but hold on. I have to point out one more thing and then you can go into this. This was her first 100-mile race ever- Yeah also, right? So this is also insane. So both men's record and women's record went down. The overall course record went down, and it was done by the woman who this was her first 100-mile race. She qualified based on 100K, which is 62 miles. And then the man that won also was, is pretty new to 100s too, isn't he? No, he's already won UTMB. Oh, he is. But- Okay, just kidding he ran Western States last year and DNF'd. he- Okay, that was his story that was his story. So he- Yeah, I think we're gonna mention a little bit more about the two of them later in the episode. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, but Kevin said, what we really want to take away from this episode are some of the other stories that- maybe didn't get as much attention because everybody's talking about the winners and the course records because obviously that is unbelievably incredible. But I think that there are so many lessons that we can take away from a lot of the other people in the race. Yes yeah, I, just before we shoot past it, 'cause I don't think we've got a lot going on later. Vincent Valliant broke the record, but so did second and third and fourth place. Oh, that was like the- all came in under the previous course record. See, that's insane. And that this is like what is happening in running right now. The same thing happened with the marathon record. the people that broke two hours in the marathon, obviously the guy who won first broke two hours, but then also the guy who won, who, got second also broke two hours, and also set the cor- course record. Yes. if the guy who won- It's crazy wasn't there, the other guy would've done it. It's so crazy. So Jen Lichter set the course record by 85 seconds, but she broke Courtney's record. Courtney had broken the previous record by 85 minutes. Yeah. So- And that her record was essentially, quote-unquote, "untouchable," right? That's because she broke- That's what people were saying the record by an hour and a half. Yeah. So people were like, it's gonna take forever. No one's ever gonna catch that. It's gonna take 50 years before we catch that." And then Jen Lichter does it on the first time that she's ever run 100 miles. Yeah. She's literally only in the last five races she's only finished first, and she has only set course records in those. Unreal. That's all she does, is just winning course records. Yeah. so she obviously is a very gifted runner. Obviously she trains hard, and she has for sure worked for what she has been able to accomplish. Clearly. And there's clearly a huge genetic and gifted component here if sh- if you can just come onto the ultrarunning scene like that. Yeah. It, there, it has happened before. It happens more often on the women's side, that you make 100 debut- Yeah and win. But it has also happened a couple of times on the men's side. Happened a couple years ago, actually. Yeah, it's wild. So let's talk about some of the legends of ultrarunning, and some of the legends who didn't finish. So Kevin, like I just mentioned to you, as the wonderful ultrarunning trail nerd that he is, filled out a form of some sort, or you filled out some sort of survey where you guessed at, the top 10, right? Just- So it's fan- it's fantasy football, but for trail running. I was just about to say, essentially, for those of you that pl- sh- like the Super Bowl, this is the Super Bowl of ultrarunning. You can bet or guess on the finishing- It's literally f- the finishers it's literally f- literally fantasy trail. And so Kevin picked, so what he said to me yesterday, I think, after the race was over, he said, "Angie, I just can't believe it. Five of my top 10 didn't even finish the race." Yeah, it's not like I had them in the wrong spots. they DNF'd. Yeah. I put some of the, like, all-time greats, people that you're like, all right, they may or may not win, but they are se- they're gonna put up a great race. They're gonna be in it. Nope, DNS. I, five of my picks to finish in the top 10 just didn't even make it there. Didn't even make it there. And I think that this is... Let's just talk about a DNF first, because I think that this is one of- A recreational runner, a real-life runner, those of us that are not professional runners, this is one of our greatest fears, I think. The, a lot of people go into a race that are just afraid of not being able to finish, and for the pros, this happens all the time. I feel like it happens more for the pros. I think if you go back and look at the DNF list this year- there's more people who were expected to finish very far up in the race than people who missed a cutoff- Yeah and therefore couldn't continue the race. There, you're gonna get some recreational runners who things went wrong and they could not proceed- but I think that you had more people from the pros say, "I'm done" than you had people who missed cutoffs. Yeah, and I think that there's a lot of reasons that happens, but I just, I don't think we wanna really go into all of that because w- we have a lot that we wanna talk about with all the different stories. But I just want to say don't be afraid of a DNF. I think that not finishing is sometimes the better choice and someti- We are gonna talk about some of these people that, we have on our list today that this was the good choice for them, and I think that it's okay. It doesn't mean anything about you. It doesn't mean... Jim Walmsley is the first guy that we're gonna talk about, and if you don't know ultrarunning, you probably don't really know that name. But if you know ultrarunning, you have heard this name before. If you live with an ultrarunning nerd like I do, you've heard this name before. And he didn't finish, and he doesn't me- make it mean anything about him. And I think that's really one of the big lessons that we can all take away is that your running performance on any given day doesn't mean anything about you as a runner. It doesn't mean anything about your level of talent. It just means that today wasn't that day. Yeah. Sometimes in the moment it, it feels like- Oh, yeah it means everything about you. Oh, yeah, for sure. But you recover from it. Yeah. DNFing, your first massive DNF is, is remarkably freeing- towards future races. All right. So who is Jim Walmsley, Kevin? All right. So he's somewhat regarded as, one of the GOATs of ultrarunning, greatest of all time. He was the course record holder up until a couple days ago. four-time champion. Would've been a five-time champion, but in his first time running it, he took a wrong turn and instead of running 100 miles, he ran 107 miles- Oh, man and got off course and ended up down at a highway where he wasn't supposed to and had to backtrack. Otherwise, he probably would've already had five. but literally one of the most dominant ultra runners, especially in Western states. He's also gone over and won UTMB. He wins races all around the world. He's phenomenal. He hadn't raced all year. He hadn't raced in 20- 2016-- 2020- 2026. He only got in because he's a Hoka athlete, and they used one of their, they sponsor the race, they used one of their spots to say, "We're gonna put Jim Walmsley in the race." Which means no one was quite sure what was going on. He also is posting nothing on Strava, whereas a lot of these pro athletes put all their training on Strava, and they've got like YouTube series and a day in the life and come follow me and all this stuff. He was putting nothing out there And people are like, "But it's still Jim Walmsley. he's still amazing." And he's not gonna show up if he's not- if he doesn't think that he can win. And the race goes off, and he's up there, and he's pushing, and it's fantastic. But ultimately, he didn't finish the race. He made it to mile 62, and he'd fallen off. And he goes over to his crew and, is slowly doing the, the change. He's not, in and out. He's talking to his crew, and it doesn't look like he's rushing through. It looks like they're, like, trying to do some, like analysis of how he's feeling. Triage? Thank you. Triage is the word I was looking for there. "How are you doing? Are we gonna push? Are we changing shoes?" "Do we need to take a break?" And then the camera, like dozens of cameras in his face. He goes back into some shade. He's sitting down. He's trying to, stretch things out. The commentators are speculating, "Maybe it's a hip. It could be a knee." based off of, the stretches he's doing. They're trying to figure out what it is. And ultimately, he figured out he could not continue. He got out of the aid station. He tried to keep running, and it looked like he was gonna be okay, but he ultimately dropped out of the race after 62 miles. And so there's still really no official word on why he dropped out, right? No, he's pretty quiet. Okay. He's just generally a pretty quiet person. Okay. that's probably not that far-fetched when it comes to these ultrarunning guys, right? But when we look at what is going on or what could have gone on, like Jim's Instagram bio says, "Trying hard is cool." that is his, clearly his philosophy. Yeah. Trying hard is cool. And clearly, that's what he did. He showed up, he tried hard, and it didn't work out this time. So he hadn't raced at all in 2026, like Kevin mentioned. He got into this race after a sponsor entry because he's had a persistent knee injury. So he hasn't been able to qualify in any of the previous Golden Ticket races. And I think that this is really one of the lessons that we can take away is that clearly he is one of the best. People like Kevin and other people out there regard him as one of the greatest of all time, or the greatest of all time when it comes to 100-mile races. And so if people go into a race thinking, "I have to win," that puts a lot of pressure. And so I don't know, obviously, we don't know exactly what he was thinking going into this race. But I think that- If we place that pressure on ourselves of needing to win for a race to be a success- Or just needing to PR. Or, yeah you don't have to win it. What if it has to- True it's a PR- A win for, a win for you. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause most of us are not trying to win races. but there's a lot of people that go into races where it's a PR or a failure. Yeah. Those, it's a, it's black or white. Yeah, and so that, that's a major trap, and I think that can suck a lot of joy out of running. And so one of the things that I think we could take away is that racing is just a chance to explore your limits. And ultimately, that doesn't always end up where you hope. Sometimes when you explore your limits, you find them. Yeah. you find those limits. Yeah. And unfortunately, that sometimes means you don't finish. Like in the case of Jim, he didn't finish. We don't know why exactly, but I think that it was likely due to a persistent knee or pain, some sort of pain that was going on- Yeah that he didn't wanna run through. There's a reason why he hasn't raced this year. he's got this underlying injury and probably thought, "If I go in and race super hard in one of these qualifying races, then am I going to be able to come back and actually compete at Western States? I could get in off this sponsor spot. It's probably my best chance. I've got all these kid- younger people coming up." People are like, "He's getting a little older." he won in 2016. He's in his upper 30s. How long is he still going to be able to compete at the front? The course changes slightly next year. He's been wanting to break 14 hours on this course for a decade. In this, he pr- had to be thinking, "This is my shot. This might be my last shot. I'm going in for it." But then you go in with that much pressure, and it's just so hard to execute perfectly. Yeah. And like we said, we don't know exactly what's going on in his head. This is just- Wild speculation wild speculation. But looking in from the outside, with Kevin knowing as much as he does about this world, that maybe that could be going on. it's wild speculation, but it's reasonable. All right, next batter up, we've got Kilian Jornet. He ran Western States in 2010. He won it in 2011. He's one of the most accomplished mountain runners. He's a Spanish runner. Now he lives in Norway. but he did this back in 2011. That was 15 years ago. That was when he was, like, 22 or 23. That was before he got married. That's before he has three young kids. There's been a lot that's happened since then. He now, has his own company that he runs for, shoes and gear. Very different human, very different life circumstance. He also came into this race knowing that his knee was hurt. He ran a poor race back in May and literally, announced to the running world, "I have a knee injury. I'm going to have to take some time off. I will do the best to get back and be able to compete at the Western States race." And he came back, but ultimately the knee acted up after he had, the long downhill section, and he DNF'd before he even got to mile 40. you also forgot to mention, though, that when he did come back after that 14-year gap, like last year, he finished third, right? Last year he did finish third. So he won in 2011, basically took 14 years off doing all these other things. He was still running during that time, of course. he was winning everything. yeah. he just didn't run Western States during that time. Yes. And then came back and finished third overall. Yes. And at, the awards ceremony, even after the race, he's, bouncing around at the finish line. clearly there was more in the tank. There was a point in the race, I heard a great interview with him- Last year? Last year. Okay. I heard a great interview where there was like, there was a break where the top people pulled away, and he thought they were going too fast, and so he literally let them go thinking that they would come back. And they asked him, "Do you wish that you had gone?" And he deflected and he's "I never try and go back and be like, 'Oh, what if I had done this?' Because what's the point?" But you gotta be thinking, he still had gas in the tank, and he's thinking, "I could come back next year and just not let that break go." So- Yeah. So the cool thing that I love about Kilian Jornet after under- just learning a little bit about his story, like I, obviously Kevin knows a lot more about him and everything than I do, but- Before the race, he said that curiosity has always been a part of how he races. And after the race, he had the same message. And you all know, if you've been listening to this podcast for any length of time, how much I love curiosity, especially if you are one of our clients. and you know how much curiosity plays a huge part in my life and my success, and I think that curiosity is such an important emotion for us to tap into. And so when Kilian came to this race, he really came in with that sense of curiosity saying "I know that I have this knee injury." And I remember seeing a video that you showed me, I think, on Instagram or TikTok or something about the... It was like the first time he was able to do a single-leg squat in a year and a half- Yeah because of this knee injury that he had. And so he came and to see what his body was going to be able to do on this given day. It wasn't that he was going into this thinking, "I have 100% chance of winning." It was like, "Okay, I know that this is my circumstance right now. What is possible given what's going on with my body right now?" And unfortunately, it meant a DNF at mile 38. Yeah, bec- there's, when you hit aid stations, you have to DNF at certain places. Yeah. You can't just call it quits in the middle of... 'Cause the trail is literally the middle of nowhere. Yeah. So he made it to that aid station and then he had to get his way out of there- somehow. Yeah. And so that was essentially what was going on, and he just accepted that and moved on. And all y- I think that's the biggest lesson that we can take away from Kilian. Now, I have my own opinions on things as a physical therapist, which we are, may or may not get into in this episode, but I think that one of the big things that we can take away from Kilian's story is leading with curiosity. And I think that when we lead with curiosity instead of expectation, that can change your entire relationship with running, with the process, with the outcome. because- Coming into something, whether it's a race or a training session or a strength session with this idea of, I wonder what I can do today, is much different than I need to prove something. I n- I need to prove to myself that I belong here. I need to prove to myself that the training was on point, or I need to prove to my coach or to my family or whatever it is. That's much different than, I wonder what I can do today. And if you go back and watch old stuff on Kilian, that's always been his philosophy. since he was a kid. Yeah. He was just like, "I wonder if I can run up that mountain. I wonder if I could run up that mountain. How fast could I go around it?" he- this has just always been what he is I wonder what. Yeah. I wonder if I could. And instead of I have to do this to show that I'm better, like that's just never been who he was. All right, next guy up, Hans Trauer, his nickname Young and Fit. He comes in, he is 26. He ran this last year and finished eighth overall. he led for a huge amount of the race. He led for 60-ish miles of the race. at one point he was 30 minutes ahead of the course record pace. He hasn't lost in the calendar year of 2026. And when he took it out, like he starts leading and they're only like five miles in, and the announcers are like, "He's pushing hard." he's gapping the two legends that we just covered. most people are debating greatest of all time between the last two guys we talked about. And we're like five to 10 miles into the race and Hans Trauer is pushing the pace and gapping both of them because he was betting everything he had on himself, which I think is a huge lesson for him, is Trust the training, trust that you've got it, and go for it. He wasn't trying to beat other people. He just had full faith that what he was doing was in his capability. And ultimately, the heat, it wasn't a blazing hot year, but the heat of the canyons gave him some GI issues, and he was walking and throwing up like crazy, and he dropped out around mile 80-ish. Yeah. So did that work out for him? Who knows? Because ultimately, th- we're not him, and it's always going to be about what he takes away from this process. Because before the race, he had a quote that said, "I like to race to put on a show for the people." Which definitely ha- happened, he's out there, like Kevin said, way out in front of some of these legends in the field. And if you are watching this race, you're like, "Oh my God, what is gonna happen?" Like he... What is happening right now? And it reminds me of that guy in the Boston Marathon, Oh, yeah, you like him I forget his name. CJ or something? Yes. CJ Albertson. CJ, he just, all of a sudden, it was like a few years ago, or like probably more than that now, because a few years ago I was, like, 30, even though that was 15 years ago. It's weird how time works that way. But, when he came out, he just took off and was out in front by himself for a very long time. And then, of course, he- and I shouldn't say of course, but that first time he did it, he blew up. And then he came back the second time, and he did it again. And his whole thing and his whole racing philosophy was, "I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna push it as long as I can." And every single year he didn't change his strategy. Because we talk about, we talked about this last week w- when it comes to the ego and how the ego can prevent us from learning, and how it's important for us to have experiences and not just make excuses or come up with reasons why we didn't get the result that we want, but also learn from them and then alter things to, get better for the next time around. And CJ I know we're talking about Hans right now, but CJ was, his philosophy was like, "This is the way that I like to race, and the more I practice this, the better I'm going to get." He showed that year after year. every year he did it, he was able to last a little bit longer out in front, a little bit lo- And ultimately, he ended up getting swallowed up by the pack every single time. He never won Boston, at least hasn't yet. But, this, hearing Hans's story kind of reminds me of that, is "I'm just gonna go out and, see what I've got." Yeah, it's- It's very, pre-esque as well. It is very pre-esque. Pre-Fontaine. he did not grow a mustache for this year's race as he did for last year's. I'm not sad about that. I know you are not. It- I'm not a mustache fan. I don't think that you're sad that I have not decided to grow a mustache for any of my ultra races either. We are still married. Yes, good point. but after the race, I'm all over social media trying to follow, everybody's thoughts on their races, like anything you can peel out of this. His sponsor put up a post. The entire caption, it was him, cr- basically dragging himself into the aid station where he ultimately DNF'd, and the entire caption just said, "Icarus." It was like he went as big as he could. He just flew a little bit too close to the sun. And it's not like he, he made it to, mile 15 and blew up. he had a plan, and his stomach just didn't quite agree with the plan. Yeah. But it was probably pretty darn close. Yeah, but, what do you think? Okay, so these are all the legends, essentially, who did not finish the race. th- there, there's several more, but this is what we've got. legend, up and coming. exactly. So w- we chose three of the stories. But, so what do you think about that though, Kevin? especially with your experience as an ultra runner, especially running 100-mile races, do you think that- Th- in looking back and, learning from these different things, 'cause w- I think that we could easily look at them and been like, clearly they didn't do it right if they didn't finish," right? clearly that strategy didn't work. They need to do something different next time. Clearly Kilian should not have run on that bum knee. He came out way too soon. He was not fully rehabbed. I don't know the details there, if that's true or not, because I am not his physical therapist or his doctor. I think it's arguable that's why he dropped at 38- and didn't try and keep pushing. 'cause that's some of my thoughts too, is like it depends on what hat I pr- put on, right? Oh, come on. You- Which lens am I looking at? You let me run a 100-mile race with a hernia. I... There's only so much I can do. I'm not gonna say no. But we had boundaries around it. Yeah. And I think that Kilian probably round this, ran this race with boundaries along, around it- yeah from both his doctor and his wife. 100%, they had a conversation. you have to. and, oh, okay, going back to your hernia s- race, th- those of you that might be new to the podcast, Kevin ran his 100-mile... Actually, it was your first finish. Yes, it was. It was Daytona, in 2023 with a hernia, with an inguinal hernia. So that's- Do not recommend your, in the groin. and it was a sizable hernia. it was much, much more sizable after the race than it was before the race. but y- but we did. ultimately Kevin's his own person, and I'm not his mother, and I'm definitely not going to tell him... I shouldn't say... nothing wrong with his mother. Love you, Cathy, if you're listening. but- It's not my job to say you can't do this. And I, as your wife, feel like it's my job to support you and even though I might not always understand or agree with your decisions. Yes, but as my crew chief- Yeah on that day, there was also a line where you had to be the person to say, "You're not doing this anymore," because I was going to keep going. Do you remember what that line was? I do not any- anymore remember what the line was. Yeah. But I know that we had a very- calm, worked out conversation beforehand of whether I was going to need to pull out of the race. we just had... It w- and it, I don't think it was hernia specific. I think we just had a plan of whether or not that was going to happen based on the, that pre-race meeting that I went to- Yes for the crew chiefs. That was very helpful. It wasn't really hernia specific, 'cause I remember when you got in the shower and I was helping you... This might be TMI for some of you. Oh, it definitely is. but when I was helping Kevin undress after the race, I- 'Cause I couldn't lift my legs anymore. I helped him. I pulled down his shorts and I said, "Holy shit." And then I said, "Kevin, I didn't realize it was that bad." And you're like, it got worse over the course of 100 miles." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, does that not hurt?" And you're like, "It's not very comfortable." You guys have to know the way that Kevin puts things. It's just, I... But you were in a lot of pain after that. I was in a lot of pain. you could not run for months, and then ultimately had to have surgery because it just made the problem way, way worse. But- for dozens of miles of that race, my foot hurt way worse than that did. So I was just like- Oh yeah, that was the, that's when we met Tanya with the whole toe thing. Yeah. So anyway, who knows what each of these people were thinking or if they made the quote unquote right decision. But who knows- But they all made a decision who knows, I think, is one of the big takeaways. Yeah. Because curiosity leads with all. Put myself in a position that I have a chance, and then go for it in the way that I think is best, and maybe it works and maybe it doesn't. going back into it, I think that when you're looking at, Jim and Killian, they put themselves in the best position that they could. that's what they were dealing... They both had an injury, but they both were going to run the race as best as they could. is Hans gonna alter the way that he, puts calories into his body? Probably, but it's a learning experience. He's 26. the, almost everybody else that he's running against is in their low mid-30s, who, who are at least up at the top of the field. the ultimate winner I think is 32. Yeah. All right. So let's talk about some of the comeback stories, because this is really important for us in what we take away about- our finishing times or perseverance. I think it, this w- this next section that we're talking about are some really amazing examples of perseverance, 'cause it's not just about finishing, it's about how you keep going when the day is not what you planned for or what you had hoped for, and I think that's really important. And I think that one of the really cool s- comeback stories here is the winner. So Vincent Brouillard won the race, and what we didn't mention yet is that last year he did not finish. He DNF'd at mile 80 last year. So he ran 80 miles through the mountains and did not finish, and he came back this year and won in a course record. So he did not waste anything last year. you can... I would love to hear his opinion on it now, but clearly based on his results, we can gather that he learned a lot from his race last year and probably trained differently and then was able to go out and not only finish the race, but win this year and set a course record. And it makes him, I think, one of three people now who have ever won both Western States and UTMB. And he's a shoe designer. Like he has a job and a seven-month-old So- Love it yeah, there's a whole lot going on. Actually, the winner last year also, when he crossed the line, also had a seven-month-old. Apparently, that's the thing. Okay. So I'm not having another baby, you're gonna have to figure that part out on your own. Oh, no, we'll cover why I'm not attempting to win this race later. All right. So let's talk about Adam Peterman. Okay. Adam Peterman won Western States back in 2022. It was his 100-mile debut, and a lot of people were like, it wasn't that fast of a time relative to, the year before and after." He still won the race. that is amazing. He won the race the first time that he'd ever run 100 miles, but then he had a lot of injuries and was basically injured all through '23, was-- kind of struggled for a few years after that. He came back and qualified and ran the race last year hoping to, compete all the way up at the top, but ended up between, injuries and stomach and various things. He walked a whole bunch of the race and basically made it in just under 24 hours. His wife passed him partway through the race, and he was like, no, you keep going. I'm just not having a day, but you are." And, that's bonkers. But he still did it. And I'm not saying that the guys that we talked about before that DNF'd did the wrong thing or he did the right thing. I don't know. There's a lot of extra things going on here. But- Ultimately, it's 100 miles, and who knows what can happen during that amount of time. And I can't remember if it was the interview with Adam or with somebody else, but they were talking about going up to, which is this, such a weird, ultrarunner mentality. They went to, the medical people at one of the aid stations and were hoping that they were gonna tell them that something was seriously wrong with their knee or hip or something, that they could not continue. And they went, and the doctor's "Yeah, no, actually, you're fine. You just, you can't keep your food down." They're like, "Oh, okay," and then just keep on going- because that's what we got. So this guy won the race, then took him years to get back to the race, has a bad day, drags himself across the line, and then qualifies again to do the race this year and just puts himself, runs a methodical race, keeps moving up all day long, finishes sixth overall, 14:26, beat his winning time by over an hour. Wow. It was fantastic. And the thing, every time he showed up on the live coverage, he's just smiling. he just genuinely looked happy all day long. as happy as you can be while dragging yourself through 100 miles. But he just looked happy, which made me just w- cheer for him so much, 'cause that's, that is how I want to run moving forward. Yeah. that's what I wanna bring, is as much joy as possible. 'Cause the last year had to be so brutal, and then knowing what happened in '25 to wanna then do it again in '26. he already won the race. You have a Cougar trophy sitting in your house. You don't have to come back and do anything, but he did. The trophy is a cougar? It's a tr- yeah, it's a cougar. Oh, that's fun. I know. It's, but he did. He came back and came back with joy, and ran the d- had a day, and was so happy to finish where he finished, and now he's guaranteed in next year if he wants to do it again. there you go. And I think that also is such a great lesson for all of us, because we all have runs that haven't gone our way or races that haven't gone our way. So how are you framing those things in your mind? Are those just reasons for you that you're not gonna get the result that you want, or can you take the lessons away, come back the next year, and try again? And that's one of the cool things about Adam, because even though he finished and he struggled after last year, he hired a coach. He rebuilt. He came back. we all can do this. No matter how old you are, no matter at what point in your running or racing journey you're in, we can always look for outside perspectives, and we can all tap into joy and gratitude, because that's really one of the cool things that so many runners unfortunately never find. And when you can find that gratitude for just the experience, for what you're going through, and it sounded like when you saw him on, all the different feed cameras that you were watching, when you are running with a smile on your face and you've got that joy and every mile is just a gift, that's so motivating to keep going. it's also helpful for anybody that you're running, that's running around you. Yeah. And that, I think, is one of my favorite parts of ultras, is running with other people, seeing other people throughout. Any joy you can bring just comes to them. Any joy they're bringing bounces off of you. It, it- we all help each other. It's fantastic. All right. Let's talk about Molly. All right. Molly Seidel. We both- We love Molly. Of course we do, 'cause she went to Notre Dame. She's a Notre Dame grad. Go Irish. All right. So Olympic marathon bronze medalist from the 2020 Olympics that were run in 2021, but we still call them the 2020 Olympics. and then she moved from road racing- And that was her first marathon, wasn't it? Or- she r- ran the trials the trials. Yeah. But- Yeah she won everything- Yeah through high school and college, and then made it, like qualified for the Olympics. She finished second at the US trials, finished bronze at the Olympics. And then this string of like mental challenges and a lot of- Physical injuries a lot of struggles, physical injuries- Yeah all sorts of things were hurt. She ultimately decided that she was going to find more joy and more excitement and more energy, and really bring back her love for running if she left the roads and moved to the trails. And there's other runners that are like, "Eh, I just, I don't want the stress of the roads anymore." She really seems to fully embrace what trail running is- and want to do it at the highest level. And then she ran one of the qualifying races for Western States, one of these golden ticket races, and she finished high enough that she qualified for Western States. So that was in her first ever 100K. Which was the farthest she'd ever run. And so she had never run 100 miles either, but she's Molly Seidel, so everyone's who knows what she can do?" obviously the pr- the woman who won, this was her first race also. So knowing that it was Molly, there was probably a lot of high expectations going in. Yeah. Expectations were weird 'cause no one quite knows what to do with somebody who's that fast on the roads. Yeah. so she said plenty of times beforehand that she was doing this to really experience, that she's a very competitive person and, she's an Olympic bronze medalist. She can hang with people for plenty of time. She's put in quality training. Yeah. But her goal was to finish in the top 10 so that she would auto-qualify for next year and be able to race more competitively. And that did not happen. She had a good first half of the race, and then things just started falling apart. And it's a very difficult race. A lot of people break it into, thirds. You have to g- run through, high country, through, real off-road, off single track trails, and then you're up and down these canyons, and it's brutal, and ultimately just wore on her. And one of, I think, I don't remember if she posted or one of her sponsors posted, but they put up, her splits through the race, and it was, like, just knocking off splits mile after mile after mile until it gets to the back half of the race. And it was like, and then this mile was in 30 minutes, and then this mile was in 45, and then this mile was in two hours and 10 minutes. Where it's and then she spent some time in an aid station. Yeah. But ultimately she chose to get back up out of the aid station and make it to the finish line. Which is a tough choice when you've been at an aid station for two hours. Yeah, and I think that's, such a good contrast to what we were talking about earlier with the people that decided not to finish, and we're not saying that one decision is better than the other by any means, because every runner has to make whatever decision is best for them in that moment. But I do think that there is this idea for a lot of professional runners that, "If I'm not having the day that I wanna have, if I'm not having the race that I want to have, I'm just going to pull off and I'm not going to finish." I know that's a big mentality in road racing as well, because it's not worth the strain and the stress that I'm putting on my body if I'm not going to get the result. Because a lot of professional runners, and I'm not sure exactly how Molly's contract or is, structured or anything like that, but A lot of elite road runners that make their living running, they have, they make a base salary and then they get bonuses based on where they finish in certain races, and if they win certain races or if they podium in certain races. And so a lot of runners are really looking at their running through a business lens because this is how they make their living. And so if a race is not going their way, they make the decision to not finish the race so that they can recover faster and then enter the next race, or be more prepared for whatever the next race is on their calendar. Not to mention appearance fees. if you- Appearance fees, if you DNF on mile, 10 of a marathon, you could run a marathon the next month. Yeah. And so there's all these other outside factors that we never really think about as real-life runners. And so I really have so much respect for Molly deciding to keep going, because I think that's very much what most of us would choose if we had to, were put in this position. Just because you have a goal time doesn't mean that the race is not worth it, even if you finish slower than you were hoping for. Yeah, 'cause depending on the race, 5K, half-marathon, marathon, whatever the distance is, there may come a point where you hit a split and you're like, "There's no way that I can hit my goal anymore." Yeah. That goal is gone. Which is also why we recommend having several goals. But sometimes it gets to a point where it's like, my A goal is gone, and my D- B goal, and C- and, D is drifting away." Yeah. And what is it that you can still hold onto? What is it that still makes finding the finish line worthwhile? 'Cause it's not the clock anymore, but that finish line might still mean something, and I think that's part of the joy that can come from racing, of where can I dig? What can I still find within myself? So I think that a lot of times finishing is its own kind of courage, and I think we see this every time you watch... if you've watched any of the end of the New York City Marathon, like the coverage of the last finishers of the New York City Marathon. That's huge coverage every year. Or just the f- the last finishers of any race. I think there's so much courage and grit and determination and perseverance. Like same thing that you were saying, there's that golden hour. The last hour- of this race is- Yeah the, so it finishes on a track, and there's always a crowd for the winners, and then that crowd rebuilds for the last hour of the race because people get so hyped up for the last hour- of are they going to make it in or not? Because when it hits 30 hours, you don't technically get a finishing time anymore. Yeah. Like you get a DNF because you didn't make it to the finish line in time. And someone finished in like 30 hours and two minutes this year. Ugh. Someone finished, they were, I think the last finisher was 20 hours and 59 minutes, and then someone came in three minutes later. Wow. And when you're moving at that speed, that means they may have been on the track- when they hit the time. Because you hit the track and you have to run like 300 meters of the track. Like- Yeah you're not done. You have to make it around the track. So because it's 100.2, they probably actually ran 100 miles in 30 hours, but they didn't make it to the finish line. Ouch. So that's the thing. Value the finish line. so you went through this as well. Like last year, or the, sorry, earlier this year when you ran, Long Haul, 100. Yes. You, okay, so last year Kevin went through this. He finished sixth overall in Long Haul last year in 2025. Yep. And then this year you were hoping to beat that time by quite a lot. Like when you looked at your goal time, you had a big goal going into this year. You wanted to- I had a very ambitious time goal you wanted to essentially take off a couple of hours from your time. Yeah. And that did not happen. You ran this time, this year slower than last year, and finished further down. I think you finished 11th this year, as compared to sixth last year. So what was that like for you mentally when you had to keep going, when you s- kept seeing the time? what did you hold onto to make you keep going? I knew I was gonna finish. I wish I had been less grumpy. but I think there was so much of just knowing that I had to get through it, knowing when it was t- when I was taking another walking break- But why? You guys are at the finish. you guys are waiting for me. That we put this story out there, we shared it. It's not like we have a huge audience that we're sharing. I don't have millions of people that I'm sharing this to, but we've got our Real Life Runners team. And I feel like when you have a team behind you, when you have your family behind you, I'm gonna make it to the finish line. yeah, it'd be great if I did it in the time that I was hoping for, but above anything, I'm gonna make it to the finish line. Next time I hope to make it to the finish line happier. Yeah. Regardless of the time on the clock. That's my next challenge, is bring more joy throughout the entire race. Bring more joy to the finish line. honestly, just bring more silliness, I think- is how I'm gonna try and approach it more fun. But- So for you, it was community. Yeah. It was really about the other people that were helping you pull or push through. Yeah. Yeah. And the year before was a lot of, the other racers in it. Yes. I was cheering for anybody 'cause it's a multi-loop course, so you pass all sorts of people. This year it was like, I'm gonna keep doing it. You guys are there supporting me, hanging out in the woods all night long." I'm gonna finish this thing." All right, let's wrap up with a couple lessons from some of the veterans of Western States, some of the people that have run this same race year after year. What do you have to tell us about these guys? Okay. So- One of them, Jeff Browning, love this guy. He's d- Bronco Billy? He goes by Bronco Billy. I like that right away. I know you might not like his facial hair. Probably not. But, he's 53 years old, which is awesome. He's 53. This is his seventh Western States he's been top 10. he was not going into this one thinking he's gonna be top 10. He's 53. He literally ran the Cocodona 250 seven weeks ago and did well, competed in it. Not like he was like, "Oh, I guess I'll try and cross that one." he competed in that, comes back seven weeks later, and is aiming, verbally announced that he was aiming for the 50 to 59 age group record, which was, like, 18:20-ish, and he did it. And for a bunch of the... Most of the day, he was ahead of course record pace, but behind a couple of other guys who were also in the same category. but his experience on the course, he's ju- he's so competitive. And even though he wasn't competing for the win, he just loves competing. Pre-race interview, he was talking about his just, his lo- his burning desire for competing. He doesn't care what it is. He wants to win the thing. He wants to find a way to compete. And so what he's done is figured out other ways to compete. Even on, on this, the Super Bowl of trail running, he can't compete for the win, so he was announcing, calling his shot beforehand, "I'm going for that record." And he did. He broke it by, 15 minutes. He ran, 18:03. Yeah, and so for him, this is such a great lesson for all of us, is redefining what success looks like for you. Because sometimes, maybe at the beginning of your running journey or somewhere in the middle when you start to take things more seriously, maybe it does become about the time. Maybe it becomes about PRs. Maybe it becomes about trying to win your age group or different things. And I think it is important for us to continuously redefine what success f- looks like and redecide why we're doing things. I think that this is one of the fun things that I took away from one of my coaching calls last week with my coach, is what is there in your life that you're just doing because you've just always done it this way? Or th- that's just your goal because that's always been your goal, versus actually looking at your life or looking at your running and consciously redeciding to want what you want and to have what you have. I think that's such a thing that not a lot of us do. do you look around and say, "Yep, I still want that couch. Do I still want this, these running shoes?" are those just the running shoes you've been running in the past decade? I got super nervous 'cause you pointed at me on that second one. Do I still want, and then she pointed at me. th- but that is one of the things. r- consciously re... do I still want you as my husband? the answer for me is yes every single day. I wake up with my fingers crossed every morning. Please be a yes. Please be a yes today. But, like, how many people are just going through life and just, this is my life. This is what it is, and this is how I live it"? And I think it's so much- There can be, it can be so much richer than that. It like, there's something to be said about routine and habit, and those things can be wonderful. But it, when you start to move into living life unconsciously, that's where I start to think that it doesn't- it's not that it becomes a problem, but life is just, it can be so much richer than that. And I think that Jeff is a good, or Bronco Billy is a good just the fact that he has that nickname is fantastic, a good example of that. Of still he loves the training, he loves the work, and that's what keeps him going. And so he was able to redefine what winning means for him at different stages of his running. he knows he's not going for the number one overall win anymore, but he can still go for his age group win, and that's amazing. And that's h- having that big goal is still something that clearly drives him. And I think it's- he's still going for winning at Cocodona. He just didn't- Yeah pull it off. Fr- fantastic. but he knows- So he lost to Rachel. But he knows that he probably has a greater chance at that one than some of the other things. So I think that it's an example of understanding the reality of the situation, and also trying to figure out how you can make it more fun and how you can still compete at a level that gets you excited and motivated. Yeah. if you're ever looking for somebody that brings some excitement to everything they do, every race, all of their training, Is it Bronco Billy? Find the guy whose name is Bronco Billy- Yeah who signs off all of his Instagrams with giddy up. you're just, you're bringing joy. You're bringing fun. Love it. All right. One more guy that I wanna go over, John Kelly. Okay. He has finished the Barkley Marathons, which is a different beast unto itself. He's finished it three separate times. There are people who have done this race 10 times and never crossed the finish line, never made it, 20% of the way through. He's done it three times. At 41, he attempted the Appalachian Trail FKT last year, and ultimately had an injury that made him pull out of that thing. He succeeds on the most difficult circumstances possible. So to him, the Western States 100 is essentially like a short, fast race for him. Short and fast. I love it. Be- I was watching some stuff on him beforehand. He goes, there's only 1,700 feet of climbing." Only? Only. Sorry- It's only 100 miles sorry. 17,000 feet of climbing. Yeah. had my zeros off there. that's the thing. And no one was thinking he was going to, fight for a win, fight for top 10. John was showing up to compete. he was not like, "Eh, I'm going here to enjoy the experience." He was. Don't get me wrong, he enjoyed the heck out of the experience. Pictures before the race, he got, special pacing numbers for all of his kids. he has- Aww four young kids, so that they, when they got to the track, they could run him in. Like- He enjoyed the heck out of it, but Western States is not his style of race. But he still showed up to run as best as he possibly could. And afterwards, his sort of race recap, perfect first half of the race, and then he just started feeling dizzy partway through. And it seemed like things were going w- fine, but, and he got himself recovered, and then as it got to, the final 20 miles, his words from Instagram, "Death marching the final 20 miles on aid station Coke alone." that's all he did. And i- in a thing that was supposed to take him two hours, it took him four. And so he came in at, a little over 18 hours, and he was thinking maybe he could s- he was still fast enough to finish with a time in the 16s. But it turns out it's not. And his takeaway is, "I thought I had a shot at 16s, but maybe I don't anymore. Maybe I no longer have a shot at the top 10 anymore. So I need to soak up every experience that I have, because nothing's guaranteed. So enjoy every experience, because you don't know what you've got left." that's a great lesson for all of us, no matter where we are in our running journey, because no one- nothing's guaranteed in life, right? we are all runners today maybe, but, you can step off a sidewalk and sprain your ankle or break something, and then there goes your running. Or you could be lifting and- we had a friend who did that at the very start of the, What's the one across Death Valley? Oh, yeah. That's true. Badwater. Badwater. the Badwater 125. 135. 135. Yeah. Thank you. He stepped off of a curb, a quarter mile into it- and was, his whole day was done. Yeah, so terrible. So y- nothing's guaranteed, and so it is a really important lesson for all of us to just soak it up. this is an amazing gift that we've all been given, the ability to run, the ability to race, the ability to climb mountains or whatever form of running you do is a gift. And you don't have to run 100 miles for any of this to apply to you. Racing is just the container. It's a, it's an, a way that you can challenge yourself. It's a way t- for you to see what you're made of or what kind of lessons you can take away. it's just a container for growth, and we can learn these lessons through so many different things, and running is just one of those ways that we can do that. And so I think that no matter where you are in your running journey- Some of the big lessons that we want you to take away from this episode are, number one, lead from cur- lead with curiosity, right? you don't have to go into every single race with the pressure of a PR, or with the pressure of a podium, or a win, or trying to prove something to anybody. When you lead with curiosity, the race can be such, so much more enjoyable, and you might just end up with a result that you didn't expect. Yeah, if you take the pressure off and just simply say, "What am I capable of today?" Yeah. Good things can happen. that's how I ran my half-marathon PR. Yeah. And my half-marathon PR, I did go into it with a lot of pressure 'cause I wanted that PR, and then the weather and the whole day just completely blew up, and I just threw all of that out the window and was like, "Oh, let's see what I can do today. There's gonna be ridiculous winds and rains and who knows what happens," and I ran a PR- Yeah and had so much fun in the process. Exactly. What you do with a bad day matters far more than the bad day itself. Hey, we talked about, Adam Peterman, who bare- who walked it in last year and came back and finished, took that as a learning experience and sprung board to sixth place this year. He didn't have to. He did not have to come back. He could've said, "You know what? I'm done with Western States. I'm gonna do other races." There are plenty of races around the world. But he said, "I'm gonna choose this as a learning experience." So that's a good one, too. That's a good one. Finishing, and really even just choosing to do any of this in the first place, is a choice. And sometimes finishing and doing the thing is the hardest choice available. So Molly was a great example of ch- someone that chose to keep moving even though that race was not her day, and I think that's a courage, a different kind of courage in and of itself. And a lot of people would give up in that circumstance, so just choosing to continue forward is huge. there was another lady that I saw that finished. She crossed the finish line with a huge gash on her head. Did you see that lady? I didn't. that happens all the time. Yeah, 'cause she had fallen and, gashed herself and was just, had blood all over her face, but she still chose to finish. Yeah. And then redefine what winning is. I think the last couple stories are ones that are gonna stick with me for a while. one, these are some of our older athletes that we had on the list, but also redefining winning for you. Figure out what, what makes the race worthwhile. Why do you wanna do it? That it's still a gift, that the training is still an enjoyable process. This was a handful of stories that we did. There are 370 stories to be told this day, and it's amazing that all these people made it to the race. And for the ones that made it to the finish line, that's amazing. For those who didn't, that's amazing that they put themselves in a position to be so vulnerable on such a huge stage like this. It's why I'm still running races and putting my name in the lottery every single year. 'Cause it's such a transformative experience, and I think that we pulled out some good ones. There were so many more good stories that I'm like, "We can't talk about all of them." Yeah. But these are some good ones. All right. So if you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a comment over on Spotify. Leave us a review. Share the ra- or share the episode with a friend if you liked it. I know this one is, a lot different than some of the other episodes that we did, or we have done in the past, so we'd love your perspective and your feedback on it. As always, get out there. Lead with curiosity. Persevere. Choose your own kind of courage. There's so many amazing things that running can bring to your life other than just a time on a clock. So we hope that this episode helps you to see maybe a couple of those things in yourself as well. this has been the Real Life Runners Podcast, episode number 468. Now get out there and run your life.