Real Life Runners with Angie and Kevin Brown

393: Prepping for 100 miles - Kevin's Journey to Long Haul 100

• Angie Brown

Share episode

We kick off the new year by discussing Kevin's preparation for his upcoming 100-mile ultra trail race, the Long Haul 100 in Lakeland, Florida. We delve into Kevin's training journey post hernia surgery, the mental and physical challenges of ultra running, and the adjustments made along the way. The episode also covers the logistics of the race, including nutrition strategies, the unique loop course format, and the differences in crewing compared to previous road races. Tune in for an insightful look at the world of ultra running and get behind-the-scenes details as Kevin gears up for this major endurance challenge.


00:15 Kevin's Ultra Race Preparation

04:13 Kevin's 100 Mile Journey: Past Experiences

11:51 Training and Recovery Post-Surgery

16:22 Training Adjustments and Challenges

30:47 The Mental Challenge of Ultra Races

31:10 Training for a Marathon vs. a 100-Mile Race

31:59 Environmental Challenges in Ultra Races

32:47 Foot Care and Physical Strain

33:48 Training Setbacks and Adjustments

35:12 Dealing with Pre-Race Anxiety

35:45 Tapering and Final Preparations

39:48 Race Strategy and Crew Dynamics

50:03 Nutrition and Hydration Plans 

Are you a woman over 40 who is ready to train in a way that helps you get stronger and faster without breaking your body down? 

If so, Press Play is OPEN this week (for a few days only)!

Check out the details here!

Press Play will help you train in a way that makes you stronger, improves your energy, and skyrockets your confidence in ways you can’t even imagine. Enrollment closes on THURSDAY!


Thanks for Listening!!

Be sure to hit FOLLOW on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Your ratings and reviews really help and we read each one!



Grab your free Strength Guide for Runners here.

Interested in our coaching program? Check out our coaching options here.

Grab your free copy of the Running Snapshot by clicking here.

Come find us on Instagram and say hi!





Don't forget: The information on this website is not intended to treat or diagnose any medical condition or to provide medical advice. It is intended for general education in the areas of health and wellness. All information contained in this site is intended to be educational in nature. Nothing should be considered medical advice for your specific situation.

Angie:

What's up, Runners? Happy 2025. Happy New Year. This is our first episode of the new year together, Kevin and I, because the first episode of the year, we had an interview episode with Amanda Schaefer, which was awesome. And last week, we did replays of the five day challenge. So this is our first episode, and we are diving in to Kevin's Ultra race this weekend. He's prepping for a hundred miles this weekend. So today we're talking about all about his preparation, how he feels, how his training has gone and all of our thoughts going into the race this weekend. So stay tuned. All right, we're back, Kev. Happy 2025.

Kevin:

Happy 2025. You kind of got to have a little happy 2025 on like your intro to the interview episode, but,

Angie:

my intro to the interview. Oh yeah. Yeah. What? All of that though was recorded last year.

Kevin:

I know, but released in 2025. Did you pretend that it was 2025?

Angie:

did I pretend? I don't usually pretend very well.

Kevin:

Oh, okay. Fair enough. I don't think so. No, because I actually So, we're in happy 2025 from both of us.

Angie:

No, actually, because that, I actually changed the release date of that episode. I was planning on releasing that the last weekend, so if you listen carefully, I'm curious how many listeners actually heard the mistake in that episode. There was a mistake in that episode. So, if you heard it, I'm not going to tell you right now. Maybe I'll make a note to try to like follow up with this and tell you. You can DM me on Instagram at RealLifeRunners or at DrAngieBrown and let me know if you noticed the little mistake of the episode because, there was a little change in plans. So, yeah, this is kind of fun because we are recording this episode from my new little office area. It's, you know, it's still working from home and, I just rearranged some furniture and stuff. But I feel like I have my own little office nook now, which I absolutely love.

Kevin:

It's a fantastic little nook here. We did a little rearranging of the furniture over Christmas break when I get some time off and you get a chance to look around and be like, hey, let's move stuff. Then we tend to just, you know, move things around the house.

Angie:

Yeah, that happens periodically. And anybody else like, I mean, that is just something that feels good to do. Sometimes it's like, this isn't, this doesn't belong here anymore. We need to move things around. And

Kevin:

I've learned that there's just not a point in resisting. You just start picking things up and moving them. That's, that is the best way to handle it.

Angie:

And here we go. So today we are going to talk all about Kevin's 100 mile race coming up this weekend. He's running the long haul 100 here in Lakeland, Florida. And Kevin has been training for this for quite a little while now, but we want to kind of take you all back. Those of you that might be new to the podcast, welcome. We are here and we are loving that you're here with us and we appreciate that you're spending this time with us. I mean, maybe you're someone that's like getting back into running in 2025. Maybe running is like a new thing for you in 2025 and you came across our podcast. You're welcome here. I just want to let you know that before we jump into like, you know, Crazy training for a hundred miles. This podcast is for all runners. This podcast is for you. If you are trying to figure out how to incorporate running into your real life, how to become the strongest version of yourself, especially after 40, if you're under 40, you're welcome here too. We will talk about a lot of, issues and topics pertaining to runners over the age of 40, because that's where we are in our journey. And there's a lot of changes that our bodies go through during this phase of our life. Bye. And that's not for, well, a little bit today. We're definitely going to talk about a little bit of this as it pertains to you and your training today. So if you are new to the podcast, welcome. We would love to hear from you. You can get in touch with us over on Instagram at Real Life Runners. That's one of the best places to reach us. You can send us a DM over there. If you like the podcast, please share it with a friend, leave us a review. on Apple podcasts, that would be fantastic. So let's jump in. So as a little, we can do like a little bit of a background info of like a, why a hundred miles, you know, maybe like, you've talked about this before, Kevin. this is not his first hundred. So a little bit of a recap. Why don't you kind of tell the listeners, Where your 100 mile journey started.

Kevin:

Yeah, no, it's not my first rodeo. It's my third rodeo is really what we're going for. And it's just, it's a genuine love of belt buckles. I think is ultimately what it comes down to. Because you guys

Angie:

should see, I mean, he wears belt buckles every day. And by every day, I mean, not at all

Kevin:

there. I mean the, the prize for finishing a hundred mile is very often a belt buckle, like a sizable kind of gaudy belt buckle there. They're fantastic. The, the love of a hundred?

Angie:

Would you call it a love already? No, I mean it's How about the desire?

Kevin:

The desire, the intrigue

Angie:

Yeah, like, let's just kind of do like a mini of where did your desire for running a hundred miles come from?

Kevin:

So a hundred is, I mean, it's a fascinating distance to see if you can go out and put your body through that much mileage. you know, growing up, I had a neighbor who was an ultra runner. we weren't real close. I, he was kind of like the, the. neighbor down the street and across the street, but I knew that he ran all this, this much. And every summer he'd go off and run this ridiculously long race in the middle of the summer, up in the, up by like Lake Tahoe, which is ultimately kind of like my big goal of why I'm, I'm knocking off these, these huge races is I'm trying to use them to ultimately qualify for Western States, which is why I specifically picked this race that, that. is happening this weekend, but the, the initial push to move maybe like beyond like a marathon and into something further than that, I think probably goes all the way back towards like, I mean, I started running this far in 2020. Right. That was the first time that I went over 26 miles.

Angie:

Yeah. That's the first time you did your 50 K over lockdown. Yeah. And it wasn't really locked down, but

Kevin:

yeah, I mean, it was like December 31st or January 1st. I forget the date. It was one of those December 31st. You did

Angie:

31 miles on the 31st.

Kevin:

That's right. but it's just in a, Thought of how far could I go, you know, and still train healthy because, you know, if you go back even further, 2017, I was training for marathons and was not doing it in the most healthy way possible. So coming back from that and having health, running a half marathon, racing a marathon, doing all these things in like 2018 and 19, I get to 2020. It was like, can I go further? and still do it in, in like a real life with a full time job and kids and start seeing what else is possible even beyond 26. You know, I kind of lost the connection for trying to really race the clock in the marathon. I just didn't have the same pull than I did when I was younger. And so I was just trying to figure out basically what else sounded interesting to me and going further and further sounded. Interesting.

Angie:

So that's what brings us to today, essentially. So Kevin attempted his first 100 miles at the Keys 100, which was in 2023. Yes. Right.

Kevin:

Yep.

Angie:

2023, was the keys 100 and then in 2024, so at the keys 100, he ended up completing about 65 miles and then decided to stop running because he was having some major stomach issues and GI issues and just didn't feel, good about continuing on during that race.

Kevin:

Yeah. I mean, I don't think I probably could have. Dragged my way for another 30 plus miles knowing what I did in the second race Which is

Angie:

also an insane thing to say like I could have dragged my way for 35 more miles.

Kevin:

I mean Looking back at it now and having completed the second one. I know that I could have done the first one mentally I couldn't get my my head around having to Essentially drag myself through the last 30 like I was not really effectively running very much at that point in time And I'm like this is it's got to be doing more damage to my body than than benefit And it just it seemed like a bad thing.

Angie:

Yeah, and me as the crew chief also didn't like I was Very much supportive of you continuing and was trying to encourage you to continue the race like, Hey, maybe we should, let's just go one more mile. Let's just go a couple more miles. And like that got you a couple additional miles from where you had originally wanted to stop. And then we had to have that serious conversation of. You're like, Angie, I just, I don't want to keep doing this. Like, yes, I could do another couple of miles, but I just don't see another 35 miles happening if I can't fuel myself properly. And quite honestly, at that time, I was pretty relieved because with the Keys 100, with the way that the race is designed, you're running along, the, the road essentially in the keys where there wasn't a sidewalk and it was dark out because you pulled out, he decided to stop right at sunset. And so I was a little nervous for his safety, you know, running in the dark at night. So part of me was kind of relieved that he decided to pull out. and I also now understand being a crew chief better and kind of my role, which was given to me, more clearly at the Daytona 100, which was Kevin's second. Yeah, we made it to like,

Kevin:

we made it to the, before the race meeting and, and they, they gave some good message as to what you need to do as a runner and what your crew really is there for.

Angie:

Right. And so it was really my job to make sure he completed the race. Like that's essentially what they put on my shoulders of like, you need to do anything in your power to just keep him going. That's that's your job. Like he's going to want to stop. He's going to be in pain. He's going to, there's going to be all of these issues. Your job as the crew chief is to make sure that he gets, he keeps going.

Kevin:

Yeah. I heard, I was watching a YouTube video about somebody struggling through an ultra and they were starting to struggle at like mile 20 of 100 mile race. And the, their crew chief, who is also their wife, said that the most important thing that she did was stay neutral. Just give the runner space to make the decision. Don't encourage them. You can keep doing it. Don't tell, don't get on board with, yeah, maybe this is the time to throw in the towel, but try to create space from the, the huge discomfort that the runner is in to the decision. Cause if they just make it based off of how they currently feel. It's probably going to be done.

Angie:

Yeah. Do you think that I did a good job with trying to maintain a neutral space?

Kevin:

I think you did a very good job of it.

Angie:

All right, cool. Well, that's good. So Kevin completed that race. That was the Daytona 100. And that was in December of last year of 2023. Oh, wait, hold on a second. So the keys 100 was actually 2022, right?

Kevin:

Yes.

Angie:

Okay. So keys. 100 1st attempt 2022 Daytona 100 December of 2023.

Kevin:

Yeah. Cause I didn't race in 2024 because this race is right at the start of 2025.

Angie:

Right. And so after the race that he did complete in 2023, He completed that race with a very large hernia. So this was another I

Kevin:

mean, that's a relative term I think it was only like looked like a softball had been sewn into me. So it was a

Angie:

very large hernia Okay, like when we went to the surgeon he took one look at you. Oh, yeah, that's a big one. And so Yes, so Kevin actually had to have surgery last March. So this was March of 2024. so about three months after his race, three months after he completed Daytona, he had surgery to repair the hernia. And so how, let's talk, let's kind of start there because that's really the road to this long haul. 100 right now is, is really after surgery. So, we, we've done episodes on your recovery post surgery. So if you're interested in those, you can go back to, like March, April, May of 2024, like our episodes in that region of time. if you'd like, if you're very curious about that, but that's essentially kind of where your training started. So how did you kind of get back into running and like, where was your head as far as,

Kevin:

I mean, you go back to like March, April, I, I was not thinking at all about race training. I was just trying to run like I was trying to transition from, I am struggling to sit up in bed because you know, the couple of days after surgery, I couldn't move, like I could not sit up in bed because they're cutting open your abdomen. So I couldn't sit up properly and going from that to being able to walk,

Angie:

they didn't cut it open. It was laparoscopic.

Kevin:

It was giant incision. From like one side of my ribcage to the other and then they used clamps and just opened everything it was massive

Angie:

That's a man's surgery right there.

Kevin:

It was a man sized surgery It's like the man flu. It's way worse

Angie:

So, okay, but even in the back of your head, the back of your mind, did you have this race kind of in mind? Because like you have known that you've wanted to do this race because like you mentioned earlier, your main goal is to qualify for Western States and this is the only race in Florida. That is a qualifying race for that. So was this in the back of your mind?

Kevin:

Yeah. A hundred percent. Like this race has been in the back of my mind for years. It's different than the last couple that I've done because this is the first time that it's on a trail. That's why it's the only one in Florida because Florida doesn't have that many races that are that long that are also on a trail because we're not really known for our big. trail racing down here, especially in south, especially down in south Florida. Like you had up a little bit further north and you can get some, like some shorter trails, some mid distance trail races. but this is the only one that is long enough and popular enough in Florida to count as a, as a qualifying race. So this was always in my head and I'm like, all right, so if we get surgery, I was hoping that surgery was going to be closer to like run an ultra. Kind of recover from it for a little bit and then get surgery and went to get the like the surgical consult and they were Like yeah, so we can go to you for March and that was like three months in the future I was like, okay, that's gonna kind of tighten up the timeline on being able to train to run a hundred mile race

Angie:

Yeah, so you did not take my advice of scheduling your consult with the surgeon ahead of time. Is that because you didn't want the surgeon to tell you not to do the Daytona 100? I thought we did. No, we didn't see the surgeon until after your race.

Kevin:

Did I see my own doctor before the race?

Angie:

Possibly. I

Kevin:

think I saw my own doctor before the race. Yeah, or your primary. Yeah. Yeah. I told him what I was going to do. Yeah. And said, what's, what's the worst case scenario? And I think he said ER.

Angie:

Oh yeah. He's

Kevin:

like, and then essentially you'll go to an ER and instead of having like a doctor who specializes in surgery, you will have

Angie:

whatever doctors there and it's not going to be, it's not going to be

Kevin:

laparoscopic. So it's going to be a much worse recovery. and I was like, but, but what do you really like? He goes, well, running is not as. bad as doing other things. So it's unlikely given what you're telling me you're doing is training right now that running 100 miles is actually going to put it over the edge.

Angie:

Right. But my point was like, your surgery could have been closer to the race date, but we didn't schedule that out correctly.

Kevin:

That is very true.

Angie:

Yeah. And so that's why we had to end up waiting.

Kevin:

Yeah. So then we waited until March. And so then from March, I was like, you

Angie:

were like, no. From December to March, you were so annoyed by everything because you were in this like weird limbo place where you were in a lot more pain from the hernia because of the hundred miles. Like the hundred miles definitely made your hernia worse. It

Kevin:

definitely made it worse. It wasn't a, I've got to take off to the emergency room right now and get surgery, but I could barely run. Yeah. It was, it was real painful.

Angie:

And you were so upset about it. Like you were so angry. From the for all of those months at like just how bad running felt which was like really Disappointing like really like sad for me to see because I know how important running is to you,

Kevin:

right? But like there was not a good run during that time. Every run was awful. Like it wasn't like well Maybe today's gonna be good. It's gonna be like well, maybe today won't be Excruciating is essentially what I had.

Angie:

Yeah, and so he had the surgery. Okay, let's go back to you know, at what point did you kind of decide after, after surgery, you were just focusing on getting back into running and, you know, feeling better. At what point did you decide, okay, maybe I actually do have enough time to train for this race. Cause this surgery was in March of 2024 and obviously this is the beginning of January of 2025. So you had about 10 months here between the two.

Kevin:

So, post surgery, you encouraged me to get back to running from run walking. I like, I was really babying myself back, and you were like, it's not gonna be super comfortable, you just have to deal with that discomfort. As long as it's not getting worse, you're gonna be okay. Because I was, I was just being too gentle, I think.

Angie:

Well, and I think that's a good thing in a lot of ways and for a period of time, but I was kind of like, You know, if you want to have this race as a possibility, you do have to start running more at like, kind of now,

Kevin:

I mean, the race is a possibility, but also is your physical therapy background. You were like, this is now the type of injury. that you have physically recovered from and now you literally, you need to load the area and start doing what you're going to do. And it's not going to feel great at first. Like you go into the weight room and you start lifting and you haven't lifted a long time. That's not going to feel great. I hadn't run in months. Like I hadn't gone for like a decent length run in months. So obviously it wasn't going to feel all that good. And you kind of convinced me to get out there and push it and start going for it. And it worked out fine. I was running 3, 4, 5 miles. Running 5 miles is not prep work for racing 100. So, I don't think that I started feeling confident that I might be able to do this until probably Early summer that it was even going to be a chance and then, you know, we, we took a trip out to California and I got to run on some trails and actually like go up and down some mountain trails. And I'm like, I feel fine doing this. So I think it was around then that I was like, this, this is something that I can really actually do. That seems about right.

Angie:

So did you kind of make that decision then around the summertime to do this? Like to actually start ramping up your mileage to see if you could

Kevin:

yes Yeah, because I had started ramping up miles towards like as a teacher I base everything off of the school year and I think towards like the end of the school year I started ramping miles to see how my body responded went out to California And I realized that I could also run up and down hills on trails and that wasn't making anything worse I'm like, yeah, I I can do this thing I just have to be able to figure out how to ramp my miles During cross country season, which is tough because it's a billion degrees and we've got cross country going.

Angie:

Yeah. So, okay. So now look, now you've made the decision that, okay, I'm going to start ramping up my mileage with this goal kind of in mind, like, so you didn't register for the race yet. You didn't commit to the race. It was still this, let's see what happens mentality until about when would you say?

Kevin:

I think I registered in July because I was, I don't

Angie:

think it was that early.

Kevin:

I mean, we can go back and check, but I feel like when you, when you log into the site that you register on, it was selling saying how many spots were left and it started to run out of spots.

Angie:

So it might've been because we knew that this race was going to sell out,

Kevin:

right? The race was clearly going to sell out. They don't have a waiting list. So you, you sign up or you wait till next year and it like we covered it's, it's the race in Florida.

Angie:

Okay. So at least in your mind, regardless of when you actually registered, you essentially committed to this race in about July at the end of the summer. Okay.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Angie:

So. What did your preparation look like then from July until now and how is it like the same as the way that you've prepped in the past? How is it different than the way that you've prepped in the past? Can you give us like a little bit of an overview of like what your training look like and so that we can kind of have an idea of that?

Kevin:

My goal was really just a lot of consistency of, of a combination of easy long runs on the weekend, you know, moderate length. Runs during the week and then I kept up speed more on this training cycle than I did on the last one Like I was doing workouts that I would do if I was training to race like a pretty fast 5k like nothing super specific like this is definitely gonna get me ready to crush a 5k But I've kept my speed up a whole heck of a lot better on this one than I did from the last one and part Of that was I had lost so much speed During the months of not running, like from December when I ran the ultra until I was effectively running again in April, my speed was terrible. So I was doing like really, really hard strides to try and get my higher end speed back. And I've kept up most of that like good speed training at least once a week at, at the worst once every other week. But I've really kept up a lot of higher end speed training that I just didn't do as much of during the last training cycle.

Angie:

So in the last training cycle for Daytona 100, you focused a lot more on just like easy runs and distance?

Kevin:

Easy runs, tempo paced, like a lot of moderate paced runs and a lot of let's just get in some long miles, tried to practice fueling a bunch for that one. This one, I've done a lot more higher end speed. I've got tempo. I've got long runs, but I kept some higher end speed in this one. Okay,

Angie:

so let's talk a little bit about why you made the decision to do that because there's a lot of people Listening that might be wondering why you would even think about or worry about doing high end 5k type of speed training if you're training for 100 mile race. So can you talk about your decision to do that?

Kevin:

It's the same idea of if you're racing a marathon and you're racing it in like five, six hours, you still can't neglect the benefit of strides. If you can increase your highest power output, then running at 50 percent of that is still going to create more power and it's still going to be faster. So even though you're going way below your maximum power. Pushing up what that maximum power is not just how much you can how much power you can put out But like your speed when you're going really fast the higher you can push that then when you're working at like 60 percent of it, 50 percent of it. And you're going at a much slower pace so that you can go for hours on end that pace at whether it's marathon pace, whether it's like 12 hour pace, a hundred mile pace, whatever that is, is automatically going to be faster. So it's like the trickle down effect of get your fast, really fast. And half of it is still going to be pretty quick.

Angie:

And the other thing about it, too, is that when you work on speed training, which what a lot of people don't realize is that you're actually improving your endurance in the process because you're making your body and your muscles and all of the coordination between your brain and your body much more efficient, like when you have to do higher end speed, you know, Your muscle fibers have to more muscle fibers have to fire. They have to fire together much in a much more coordinated fashion. So you're running becomes more efficient and you are able to use the power that you have more effectively and that translates. It's into all distances.

Kevin:

Yeah. So, I mean, I was doing this with fast rides, fast rides up what we call here a hill in South Florida, which is just an overpass. but like I was running as hard as I could up that, which when I run as hard as I can up that I get from the bottom to the top in 27 seconds. So it's not like we have a big hill here, but that's as much as I can do. And I was going as fast as I could. If I go back, like I should have filmed myself back in like. April May when I was trying to do strides because I felt super uncoordinated. Like I felt like my legs were just flailing all over the place. I don't know what it actually looked like, but it felt like my arms and legs were just flying in different directions. They weren't even in sync arms and legs. I'm sure that there was there was because that's how your body naturally moves. But I felt so remarkably uncoordinated that first month of pushing strides. Really hard was massive transition for me and I felt so good doing it. I felt, you know, that my coordination was coming together so much nicer that I'm like, I need to maintain this. This is going to be super beneficial for me long term also.

Angie:

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so that's a change in your training. What about your overall mileage and your overall volume? Would you say that they were similar between Daytona and this one?

Kevin:

Yeah, roughly the same, I would suggest, outside of some sicknesses. I can't remember exactly how smoothly everything went heading into Daytona. I'm sure there were some hiccups in that one also.

Angie:

Okay, so So, off the top of my head of what I remember without going back and looking at like your training calendar and your notes, I know that for Daytona, you did a 50 miler as your longest run. And for the long haul, this one, you did not.

Kevin:

I tried to.

Angie:

I know. So, you want to talk about that because that was one of those things that did not go as planned. So, that was, over Thanksgiving break that you attempted your 50 miler. It was the day before Thanksgiving and we had it all planned out because it was going to work out well. He had the week off of school and he was going to go out and run, that 50 miles on Wednesday and then have all day Thanksgiving to just eat a lot of food and relax and recover, which was going to be a great plan.

Kevin:

Yeah. But instead I got like sick for the back end of Thanksgiving break.

Angie:

Right. So you didn't know you were. sick, but on Wednesday when you went out, you were feeling okay until you weren't during the run essentially, right?

Kevin:

Yeah. And I mean, it wasn't like, I mean, this is not going to be my third hundred, so it's not like I have a huge experience of this, but I've run a couple hundred mile races. I've done 40, 50 mile training runs. I know what that fatigue feels like as it like gradually sets in on you. It's a dimmer switch. It really is. And on this 50 mile, it wasn't a dimmer switch. Like, it was like someone had flipped a switch on me. I went from, I feel okay, like I wasn't feeling amazing from the start of it, but I felt fine. And then I forget what spot I was in that thing. And I just, I flipped and was like, I don't feel good at all, and I had, I got you to get me some caffeine and it did nothing for me. I was like, give the caffeine 30 to 40 minutes to fully kick in and see how this is going. And I still felt awful. And normally that's, that's a good switch for me is like, well, just throw some caffeine at it because it's, I mean, it's a completely legal performance enhancing substance. And. It did nothing. I was just like, this is awful. I don't feel good. Nothing was working right. Mentally, I was foggy. My legs were tired. It was a rough day.

Angie:

Yeah. So he, you ended up doing 40 that day.

Kevin:

32. 32. For one of those things.

Angie:

Okay. So you ran a 50 K, but it wasn't a 50 mile or like you had been hoping for.

Kevin:

Right. So I'm like, okay, that's still a decent amount of miles and. Honestly, I feel like the difference between being able to race 100k on 100 mile, unless you're at like the elite level and you're trying to go out and win the entire thing, most of this is up in your head. Like you've, you need to get in a certain amount of mileage that your body. understands that it's not breaking down so much, but then a lot of it is just being able to overcome fatigue.

Angie:

Yeah, and a lot of this is kind of similar if we want to kind of scale it back a little bit for people that can maybe relate to this a little bit more. If you're training for a marathon, a regular 26. 2 marathon, you don't run 26. 2 miles before the race. Most training plans only get you up to about 18 to 20 miles, usually maxing out around 20 miles. And so there's a lot of people that say, well, if I only train for 20, how am I supposed to do 26? And the answer is you don't have to, right? If you can make it to 20, you can make it to 26. 2. And so what I'm hearing you say here is that if you make it to. 50. If you make it to 60, then you can do 100. That seems like a much bigger jump.

Kevin:

And those are like the, the rules of thumb that you hear in a marathon. If you can make it to 20, then you can get to the finish line in, in ultra training. If you can get to a hundred K, you could clearly get to a hundred miles. I don't even think that you have to get that far. I think if you're, you

Angie:

haven't yet in training and you've been able to successfully complete one.

Kevin:

Right. And so this is, this is one of the things that I've done to this. I'm like, well, if I don't, I can't get in that 50 and it takes some time to recover from going out and pushing for, for 50 miler. Like you. You're kind of out for a few days afterwards So what I did to try and replace and still get in some solid training is I put in big training weekends I would do a Friday Saturday Sunday that were all good mileage that together added up to 40 plus miles and I made that work I did I did a couple of weekends where Saturday was a longer run with some speed thrown into it and then Sunday was 18 or 20 miles So I was running 18 miles With the fatigue that I was carrying from a long run with speed from the day before is not something that we recommend like this is not a normal training plan, but if you're going for hours and hours and hours, getting a day that puts fatigue into you and following that with another. 20 mile run, that's, that's the kind of training that you're looking for,

Angie:

right? And that's kind of the training that we recommend for people that are doing some of those multi day races as well, because you have to learn how to run on tired legs. And so during training, you have to essentially like, you're not going to do the same distance that you're going to do in the ultra race because it breaks your body down too much. People often ask, well, why wouldn't I, you know, why wouldn't I run 26 miles if before I ran the marathon. It's just it's too much for for your body to recover from, and it's not really worth it. It's not worth the risk. It's not worth the body breakdown. You can get a lot of benefits both physically and mentally by doing things like this, where you run that longer thing, you add some speed work in and then you go out and you run the next day. Physically, there was still some recovery in there, but you're not fully recovered by any means. You're still running on very tired legs. And then there's also that mental hurdle and that mental challenge that you have to get over as well. And that's really What Kevin is saying here is that these ultra races, these super long ultras are mostly mental. Like there's obviously a huge physical aspect. We're not discounting that. Like most humans. I mean, this is, this is a good question. Do you think most people could do a hundred miles if they train for it?

Kevin:

Oh, that's a good one, right?

Angie:

That's a, I don't know. I think that anybody pretty much could do a marathon. Like, if you trained properly, if you gave yourself the right timeline, if you understand your body and fueling and recovery and all that thing, all of that, I think most people, if not everyone, could do a marathon.

Kevin:

Yeah, I mean, there's a, there's a podcast, I haven't listened to it in a while, but he's interviewed all sorts of ultrarunners. It's main, it's mainly his interview and that's his take is that essentially everybody could complete a marathon, but a hundred is a whole different ball game and that the percent that has the ability to cross that finish line drastically reduces.

Angie:

And do you think that that's more physical or more mental?

Kevin:

I mean, there's just so many things that show up in the middle of a hundred. Like the first one, I was physically capable of covering a hundred miles. I know that I was physically capable. But a hundred miles in that temperature, that humidity, that low air quality, like there were so many things that were extra challenges on that.

Angie:

Yeah. They were working against you.

Kevin:

Right. So if, if it was like cooler temperatures, could I have done the keys 100 if that race wasn't in, you know, what, when is it? It's in May. It's

Angie:

like in May. Yeah. Like the end of May. Yeah.

Kevin:

So like it's purposely designed to be a hundred miles of. full sun exposure in the Keys in May. Like, it's super hot. You know, the last Daytona, that's in December. Like, it's designed to be still 100 miles. It's still physically taxing, but the temperature is so much nicer. And so, it's just naturally an easier race. So, you know, there's But even, even with that, you still have to put your body through all of this. You have to figure out how to fuel yourself for that much time. You got to make sure that your feet are cooperating for the entire time. Like there's a lot of things that could make your race go sideways besides just being able to physically cover the distance. Muscle wise.

Angie:

Yeah. And by feet, Kevin means like your skin quality essentially like of your feet because you're, there's a lot of skin breakdown that happens when you're running this, especially if you're running in humid conditions, like that was one of the issues with the keys is that you were so sweaty that your shoes, like your socks and your shoes were soaked. Like you were. You didn't run through puddles or rain, but you were so sweaty that it was hard to keep your feet dry and when you have a lot of moisture around the feet, that leads to skin breakdown and that can lead to blisters and blood and all sorts of nastiness, right? And so it's very important to protect your feet. And so that was one of the issues that he had. in Daytona, but we were able to fix it well enough to get him to the end of the race, which was good. so, okay, what else didn't really go as planned in your training? So there was the 50 miler that you had to cut short, and then there was over Christmas break as well.

Kevin:

Christmas break. I was going to do another one of these weekend things. I was going to do back to back twenties and then I got sick. And instead of being able to do back to back twenties, I did a seven on the first day. And stayed in bed all day on the second, like that was the day that I literally didn't get out of bed until the middle of the afternoon, like early evening.

Angie:

I was going to say middle of the afternoon, more like 5 PM.

Kevin:

I got out of bed at 5 PM. I dragged myself out of bed and had breakfast and lunch before that. I, but like I shoved some food in barely and then went straight back to bed. So I woke up at five in the afternoon. That was the day that was supposed to be the second day of my 2020. So that did not go smoothly at all. And. But by the time you hit that, now you're starting to really run out of a timeline to say, okay, how much more training can I get in that? I'm still going to be able to be fully recovered from that and not tired, not like muscularly broken down before it comes time to the race. And so I was like, well, I don't think that I should do a 2020. So why don't I? Stretch that 40 miles out over three days, over a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And I'll do like, a 12, a 12 and a 16, which I think is actually how I played that out instead. I think I did 12, 12, 16 the next weekend once I was more functional, you know? And so the things that went wrong led me. to a whole heck of a lot of anxiety last week, because last week, every time I was out on a run, I'm like, well, I'm aiming for seven. But since I missed that workout a month and a half ago, maybe instead of doing seven, I'd be better off doing nine. Like that thought was just countlessly playing through my mind. Maybe I should get in an extra workout. Should I add in some extra miles to my long run on this weekend? Just the constant anxiety that I hadn't done enough was essentially the All of last week, it was just uncomfortable.

Angie:

And then what about this week?

Kevin:

This week's too late. Like, there's nothing running wise that I can do this week.

Angie:

Well, actually, before we jump into this week, well, you're already answering it, but going back to last week when you were having all of those feelings, would you say that's kind of like the taper crazies that a lot of people go through?

Kevin:

I mean, I wasn't all that tapered down. I feel like most of the time when people talk about like their taper tantrums. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of the last couple of weeks. I think part of it is definitely that aspect of I'm. I didn't get in enough. You know, often what you hear is people saying like, I feel like I'm losing all of my fitness because they're cutting their mileage. I didn't feel like I was losing anything. I just felt like I hadn't gotten enough in the month leading up to that. So maybe I could squeeze in a couple of more things.

Angie:

So how did you deal with it?

Kevin:

I just told myself that is going to be a waste of time. You've done enough. Like really, honestly, part of this is since the school year started, I have been putting tally marks on my board of every mile that I've run since the first day of school. And it took a couple months before students realized that there was a sizable collection of tally marks up on the whiteboard. And some people started asking what it was. And it's, it's a whole lot of tally marks at this point in time and being able to be at school and see that board before I headed out for a run that afternoon was really helpful because I knew my brain was going to say, go get add two miles to the run, but my brain also was like, no, no, no, you saw what was marked off on the board. So I'm really glad that I thought to start doing that in August, I didn't think that it was going to be a way to like. Combat the tempered crazy taper crazies, but it worked.

Angie:

Yeah, because if you look at all of those hash marks, then do you call them hash marks or tick marks? I call them tally marks. Or tally marks, okay. So if you look at all of those tally marks on the board, does it really matter if you add two more?

Kevin:

Exactly. Like, that was the thing. Like, it helps

Angie:

keep it in perspective.

Kevin:

Yeah. Two is really small relative to, like, the columns that I have built up over there.

Angie:

Alright, so you need to take a picture of this board because we definitely need to post that on social media. Just because I think everybody would enjoy seeing that.

Kevin:

Okie dokie. I

Angie:

want to see it. I haven't seen it since cross country season.

Kevin:

There are many, many more columns at this point.

Angie:

Alright, so Those are kind of like the main things that didn't really go as planned. Was there any other things, like any, any other smaller things that didn't really go, go to plan or the rest of it kind of, I mean, it sounds like you are obviously able to adjust. And so those of you that are listening to, to this and. There's always going to be times, right, where stuff does not go as planned. So the best thing that you can do is adjust with the time that you have left essentially, right?

Kevin:

Yeah, adjust and have confidence in the adjustment. Like it, do I know that my adjustments are the right way of doing it? Not till this weekend. I have confidence and that's the thing is I have to have full confidence that the adjustments I made were the correct adjustments, especially this week. You know right now, I don't Like when I had it out of my run today, I'm like, yep, this is what it's going to be. And I had no thoughts of adding an extra mile at the end of it because there's no benefit. Like once you're within seven days of the race, the workout that you're putting in is not really going to have a positive impact physically on you towards the race. All you could do is overdo it and be tired going into the race.

Angie:

The work is done at this point, right? Yeah. The work is done. The best thing for you to do this week is to rest as much as possible, get as much fuel into you as possible. Right. And then like mentally prepare yourself.

Kevin:

Right. So like I'm, I have a couple of like mini workouts built in just because it helps me feel like I'm doing the same pattern that I've been doing for many, many weeks. But I know I really know that the workout that I did today is not going to have a positive impact on my race this weekend, but not doing the workout would mentally mess with me. And it physically just says, Oh yeah, it's Tuesday. I'm going to go get in like a normal tempo session. This, this feels correct.

Angie:

Yeah. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about this race and kind of like what. What's going to happen this race and, next week or the week after we'll do a recap on how the race went. So you guys will get the results of that. So how is this race different than the last one? Essentially. The last two races that he did were both road races, okay? So both the Keys 100 and the Daytona 100 are road races where he's running essentially on the sidewalk or on the side of the road And they're point to point races where he starts at one place and then runs to the other place So the Daytona 100 started in Jacksonville and it ran down to the lighthouse. That's just south of Daytona Beach. So This one is a trail race, so he's going to be running on natural Florida trails, which is mostly like dirt and like, really like nicely paved paths, right? It's a lot

Kevin:

of dirt. It's a lot of dirt.

Angie:

But it's not soft sand. It's like dirt. Dirt trails, right? Like well packed dirt trails. And it's a loop course. So essentially what it is is, the cars all park. And so this is the also the big difference for for me as the crew chief and for us as the crew team. In his previous races, we had everything in our car that he needed and we would meet him at various places. Places along the route and like give him whatever he needed. We could check in with him very frequently that especially at Daytona the keys were a little bit more strict at how often we could see you and crew you But in Daytona there they were much less strict. We could crew you very Frequently if needed which was great.

Kevin:

I mean the the way that those two courses are set up There's just a lot more parking lots that you can pull into with very with ease There's a lot more spaces that you can stop

Angie:

Yeah, and so this race is a trail race, and it's essentially a loop that's 16. 7 miles that he does six times. And so my car will be parked the whole time in the same location. And so he we will see him six times when he comes back to our car because our car is basically right on the loop. And so he'll come to us and then there's A lot more. There's a lot of other aid stations out on the course. So he's going to be relying on the race aid stations a lot more than us in this race. And so that I think is a big change. So how do you feel kind of about that difference in the crew in situation?

Kevin:

I mean, one of the big differences is how much I'm going to have to carry, like being able to see you guys every few miles. I carried very, very little, you know, in Daytona. I don't even remember how often I put on my like water pack.

Angie:

I think we only wore it like once or twice. Like I think you wore it once and then we decided like, you don't really need to wear this. We'll just refill your handheld. Right.

Kevin:

Because I could see you so often that we could just easily refill the handheld this time. A little more question mark of whether that, that pack is going to be more beneficial because

Angie:

So did you train with the pack more in this training cycle?

Kevin:

Yes, I put in plenty of long runs with the pack on. There were times that I filled the pack to its maximum water capacity because that's as heavy as it can possibly be. I don't think that I would need to do that because the thing is, at the aid station, there's an aid station around mile like. 4, 9, 11, and 13 or something to that effect. And one of them is just water. But the other aid stations are like fully stocked aid stations with all sorts of stuff for you. So I can refill whatever I've got. on a pretty regular basis. I can't refill it from your water, but I can refill it on a constant basis. So I could just put the water into my pack and that might be a plan. Or I could just keep refilling my handheld every time I get to an aid station. So we've got to figure out what's going to be the most logical thing to do. Also, we need to pack my handheld.

Angie:

Yeah,

Kevin:

that's going to be a key.

Angie:

We definitely, we forgot to do that in the last race. And so we were ending up like at Dick's at like nine o'clock at night as they were closing, trying to find they look. I didn't understand, like, Dick's stopped selling handheld, that one, at least that location did, like, they had one in the back that they found that they literally had to dust off for us, and it was like a terrible handheld, like, it was so

Kevin:

uncomfortable. They were confused of what a handheld water bottle was. But it

Angie:

was too late, by the time we realized this, all of those specialty running stores in town were closed. Oh, yeah. Because it was after dinner. Yeah,

Kevin:

I mean, I could have found one at any of the specialty, we were in Jacksonville, there's like six stores there, easily. Yeah,

Angie:

I know. Anyway, yes, we are definitely going to pack your handheld this time around. Okay, so, So that's like the big difference on how this race is different, like it's on a different trail, it's a, it's a loop course, and there's going to be a lot less of us. my thoughts on, on all of this, on like crewing this differently is we're going to see how it goes. Like, I mean, that's kind of, I mean, I don't like it. I, I'll be very, very honest. Like, I don't like not seeing you, more frequently because I. Was able, it was able to calm my nerves a lot and just to make, just to see you and make sure you're okay. But like, obviously I'm going to be tracking you on your phone, like you're going to have your phone with you. but we're going to have to figure out how to like charge that and everything too. Cause you might have to leave it with me for a loop. To charge it. I don't know. We're gonna have to figure that out.

Kevin:

Yeah. No like my my watch Has a large enough battery life that it can make it through the race, but I don't think my phone can

Angie:

right so there might be a loop that you might have to have one of our little charging packs in your in your vest,

Kevin:

or we can check and see how well the, the race markings because mm-hmm Like they're race mats throughout. It's kind of funny that it's, it's a road, it's a trail race, but they're just, they're dropping timing mats on the trail. Mm-hmm On the race. I'm, I'm sure that it's at all the aid stations and you just have to go across and so there's live tracking that you can catch me every few miles. Mm-hmm So, you know, we will see if that's actually efficiently working. And you're able to, to follow me along on that one also. Yeah.

Angie:

So how do you feel about not seeing us as much?

Kevin:

so I know how good aid stations can be. And this is part of what I think might help calm your nerves is in the last race when things were really struggling and we needed to go beyond what you were capable of doing. That one aid station was amazing. Like they were so good at taking care. And I've, I've been told that the volunteers at this race are phenomenal. That the aid stations are great. They're experienced. They're going to do a great job of taking care of you. So that helps. On the other hand, I like seeing you guys every few miles. Like it's really nice. It's really. Calming and reassuring to be able to see you every few miles.

Angie:

Yeah, I agree. And like same, you know, when me seeing you and knowing that you're okay is, is a big thing for me. And so it'll be an experience, right? Like this is what we signed up for and we've never done this before. And so we're going to see how it goes essentially is, is really the best thing that I can say. So, with all of that being said, how do you feel like the, the. 1, 000, 000 question that everybody likes to ask you. How do you feel going into this race this weekend?

Kevin:

Great. Because, because, because it's race week, that's the only possible answer. Like, and it's not a lie. You just keep saying, I feel great because that has to be the answer.

Angie:

And do you have any goals for this race?

Kevin:

Faster than doing it with a hernia. is really what I'm going for. You know, it's, it's similar to time goals that I had for the last race. The last race just went really, really south, and you know, we've talked about this before, of if things go well, I have certain times I think that I could finish somewhere between 16 and 18 hours. If things go sideways, it could take closer to what happened in the last race. Like I'm not sure. It really depends on how I feel, especially on the second half. Like in the last in Daytona, my time at 45 miles was probably pretty good. It was just my time over the last 50 miles of that race that really, really slowed things down. So, you know, You know, we'll see how things go,

Angie:

but you're committed to finishing the race no matter how long the time is or

Kevin:

I mean, I want to, because

Angie:

the goal for this race is to qualify for Western States

Kevin:

and that has a time cut off of 30 hours. Last time I managed to get to the finish line under 22 hours,

Angie:

like 21, 18, I think,

Kevin:

right? So. You know, that's still an eight hour buffer. Like I can get to the end of this race. I will be able to make it, you know, barring something really bad going on. I can, I can make it. We're not

Angie:

going to call in at all. Yeah,

Kevin:

no, it's going to be fine. Yeah, I can make it. And you know, weather looks like it's cooperating nicely. So the trail should be in good conditions. making it to the end of this race.

Angie:

Yeah. I mean, that ultimately is the goal. And then the time goals that you have kind of in the back of your head are just like. top of that or yeah, because I mean, that's one of the reasons if we're going to be honest, like that's one of the reasons that you pulled out of the keys as well, because you didn't want to just get through it. You didn't want to just cross the finish line mentally. You hadn't gotten to that place yet,

Kevin:

right? So last race really just knocked all of those walls down. Last race was like, it's not about beating people. It's not about hitting a certain finishing time. Last race. I really. fully embraced the greatness of just crossing the finish line, you know, and I'd love to do it in, in a relatively quick time. I got another goal of, I'd like to do it faster than last time. I think that I can do it faster than my last race. It's a trail instead of a road. So that's going to slow it down. But I think that it's, you know, as long as the conditions aren't wet and sloppy, I think he can be fast. So. I think that I can go faster than last time. I got another goal of making sure that I can stay under 24 hours and then I've got a goal of finishing under 30 hours. Like there are, there are layers and layers of goals and for convenience, they're all tied to numbers, but it's much more about getting across the finish line than getting across the finish line in a certain time on a clock. The time on the clock is helpful for figuring out like nutrition along the way, but other than making sure that I'm fueling on a regular basis, They're just numbers on a clock. I'm, I'm doing six loops of this thing and crossing a finish line.

Angie:

Oh yeah, we didn't talk about fueling either. Kind of like how our fueling plan is different for you this time around.

Kevin:

Putting in lots of fuel.

Angie:

So yeah, so we're making a couple changes. So in His last races. We were very much focused on like calories and carbohydrates. We had to adjust a lot on the fly because of his stomach issues. And there were just times that he did not really could not take in solid food. So we had to really switch over to liquid only types of nutrition and calories. So this time we have a couple things that we're going to add to the race plan to the nutrition plan. Number one is getting more protein into him because So, you know, normally a lot of runners don't think about protein during a race in up to like a marathon distance. People are, you know, carbohydrates are still your body's main source of fuel. So that's really the main thing that you need to be taking in. But with an ultra race with him running for. 18 ish hours, give or take, you know, 16 hours, 18, 20, 24, whatever it is, plus or minus three

Kevin:

hours is funny. It

Angie:

is. It is a while, but everything we talk about on this episode is funny, right? Like who, who talks like this, but apparently we do. So that's, this is where we are right now. So, we talked about getting more protein into him, throughout the course of the day, because that will kind of help. Preserve muscles, help to reduce muscle fatigue, it is a good idea to be taking in both protein and carbohydrates. So he's been practicing with some more real food types of options today. He chugged a protein shake and then went out and immediately ran to see how his Stomach felt on that so far so good.

Kevin:

Yeah, that was great I mean when you're training your stomach for this the the cells in your stomach turn over so fast that if you're like Oh, well, I did some some stomach training and tried to take in a lot of calories last month Those cells don't really exist anymore. So you have to perpetually be Training your gut to be able to handle all this, all the nutrition.

Angie:

Yeah. So we've got a couple other fuel sources that we're going to be trying. one of the other things that we recognize, and this is one of the benefits, like if you are someone that wants to do ultra races, you should definitely have your crew. track exactly what you're eating. So I went back and I looked at what Kevin was eating the last race and what could have possibly caused some of those GI issues. And one of the things that we came up with was he probably was taking in too much fiber because one of the things that he was using a lot were these fig bars, which are great and we recommend them to our, our clients. But when I was looking at the. number of fig bars that he took in and we were thinking, adding up that fiber content, that could have been one of the reasons that he was having some of the GI discomfort and issues. Obviously there was a hernia, you know, so part of his intestines were also protruding from his body. All right. So, so let's not discount that. So like part of me is really, really curious how you're. stomach, you know, how your GI system and your intestines are going to do on this race, you know, just, just because they're back inside your body. Because

Kevin:

they're internal organs now. Keep the internal organs internal. That's, that's going to be like our motto for the day. That is your

Angie:

takeaway. Make sure your internal organs are actually inside your body. but yeah, so. So we have, made some changes where we're kind of mixing up the fueling a little bit more. So we're not relying just on those fig bars. But there was a point that like, that's all you wanted to eat because you're like, I can't eat anything else. And so that's what you were eating. But then it kind of led to some of these other issues.

Kevin:

Yeah. I mean, I think six of them were fine. 16 of them, the fiber really adds up quickly.

Angie:

Yeah. I don't know if that's how many he actually had, but it's. Seem like that when we are looking at the, at the sheet there. So, so yeah, so we've got some, some differences in fueling and then really focusing on getting more water into you as well, like some pure water. we've been so concerned about getting calories in in the past, like with liquid calories and, you didn't take in a ton of just plain water. So that's another, thing that we have to make sure we focus on this time around too.

Kevin:

Yeah, I mean, the combination of. You know, calories and electrolytes and just liquid, throw some protein into it. It's, you know, it's going to be an interesting experience. Like we're, we talk about never do anything new on race day. Well, when you're out there for a hundred miles, there's going to be some new things because you can't train what mile 60 feels like,

Angie:

right? And you don't know exactly what they're going to have at the aid stations, you know? So that's one thing too. I mean, you did at, in Daytona. at like mile 92 you drank a whole cup of ramen like you ate ramen and like drank the broth you never practiced that before but it was really a helpful thing for you because it really helps to replenish your sodium like it was warm because it was kind of getting cooler like there was a lot of benefits of that ramen

Kevin:

yeah but i mean by mile 92 i was barely running so i could have eaten anything at that point in time but

Angie:

that's the other thing is like you know you your stomach isn't like you probably can tolerate more because you're not running as you Fast. Yeah, exactly. As like other races. Yes. Yeah. So, all right. Anything else you want to mention before we kind of wrap up today?

Kevin:

I think that's a pretty good recap. That went a little longer than I thought our pre race episode was going to go.

Angie:

I, I think so too. But then when I looked at like kind of the stuff that we were going to cover, then I'm like, okay, yeah, I guess that makes sense. So we will keep you all posted if you're not following us on Instagram. that's where I will be posting updates on Kevin's race. So his race updates in the past have been. our most popular stories like ever. so I plan on definitely doing story updates on Instagram. So we're at real life runners on Instagram. so follow us there. I will be posting updates on the stories. I'll try to go live probably as well. when I have him kind of with us or when we're around and I'll let you know how everything is going. so cheer, you know, send, send your, your love to Kevin as well. You can follow him. If you guys want to send him any messages this week, you can find him on Instagram at kevinbrown. rlr. Yeah, that's

Kevin:

me. Is

Angie:

your, is his personal one. You can send it to me at Real Life Runners too and I'll pass it along. I'll post

Kevin:

something. I'll post a picture of my, of my tally marks. There

Angie:

you go. So, Follow along, send him some, some pre race love and, good luck and all those things. And then we will keep you all posted and then we'll do a recap episode, like I said, either next week or the week after, depending on, you know, how we kind of gather our thoughts post race.

Kevin:

Yes. It might, it might take a week. We'll see how it goes. We'll

Angie:

see how it goes. All right, you guys. As always, if you have enjoyed this, please take a minute, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, share it with your friend, take a screenshot and share it on social media, that is one of the best ways that you can just say thank you for the podcast and everything, you know, this podcast is obviously free for you, so if you want to express gratitude, if there's anything that you learned or that you liked, please feel free to leave us a review or share this podcast with others so that we can help more runners like you to feel better and Run stronger after 40. So as always, thanks for joining us. This has been the real life runners podcast, episode number 393. Now get out there and run your life.