Real Life Runners with Angie and Kevin Brown

390: Racing People vs. Racing the Clock

• Angie Brown

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When you race, do you race the clock or race other runners? In this week’s episode, we dig into this idea, share personal anecdotes, including their unique race experiences and how their expectations have shifted over time due to various factors such as training, health, and past performances. We also delve into the mental strategies employed during races, the psychology of competition, and practical tips for runners in the second phase of their running journey. Whether you aim to beat your own records or compete head-to-head with others, this episode offers valuable insights to enhance your racing experience.


03:25 Race Expectations and Strategies

09:10 Racing the Clock vs Racing People

21:48 Adjusting Goals Due to Sickness

24:38 The Psychology of Racing

25:26 Pre-Race Mindset and Strategies

28:25 Balancing Life and Racing

33:10 Racing vs Running

41:25 The Fun in Racing 


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Angie:

Welcome to the Real Life Runners podcast, episode number 390. This past weekend, we ran our local 5k. And so Kevin and I are going to talk a little bit about racing the clock versus racing people, as well as other race expectations, personal goals, comparison to previous races and all that good stuff. So stay tuned. What's up runners. Welcome to the show today. Kevin and I are fresh off of a 5k race and spoiler alert. I did not beat him this year, but I will hold on to the fact that I did beat him in this race last year. And we will put a little asterisk on it because it was the week after his 100 mile race. But it's okay because I will still hold on to that fact that. There is one time in my life that I beat Kevin in a race head to head.

Kevin:

I think our best race was the time that we were relay race. I think that was really our best co racing experience because you crushed it and set us up to win because of, like, you were the first leg for it. Yeah. And, and gave me very good position and, and set me up for, you know, For an excellent win as a team,

Angie:

I appreciate you saying that. Um, I, I think we would have won it regardless if I would have, you know, run a couple minutes slower. I think that was really funny though, because when we did, um, win that race. So that's a fun side story. What, what year was that? And I don't know how many years ago that was. That was a few years, probably five or six years ago. Um, We were thinking about it was Thanksgiving week, right? I think it was like the weekend After Thanksgiving possibly or like it was

Kevin:

like two days before the race and you're like, hey, no, it was the

Angie:

night before It was friday night and I was thinking about like what I wanted to do for my long run on saturday And I forget how it even came up I think I probably got on facebook and I saw that there was a local half marathon and I was like And that there was a relay. And I was like, Oh, that sounds fun. And so I like texted a couple of friends to see if they wanted to do the relay with me and nobody wanted to do it. And then I was like, Oh yeah, I've got Kevin right here. And there's a co ed division. How fun would that be? And so he said, you know, do you want to do it? And he said, yeah, sure. Okay. And so I registered at 5 PM on Friday night for the race on Saturday morning.

Kevin:

I remember that I had done a really, all I remember. I can't remember the details to it, but I remember I did a really hard workout on that Thursday. And then you asked me on Friday night, if I wanted to race on Saturday morning. Well,

Angie:

and you did fine. You, I mean, like you showed up and that was the funny thing. Cause so one of the other high school cross country coaches was, um, running the awards ceremony and like helping to, uh, you run and officiate the race. And, uh, he came up to me afterwards and he was like, really, Angie, you brought in the ringer? And I was like, heck yeah, I brought, brought in the ringer. I married the ringer. I

Kevin:

married the ringer. I am allowed to use them as a teammate. This is fine.

Angie:

Exactly. Yeah. So that was actually really fun, but yes, in head to head competition, it's funny to me because. People always ask if we run together and I kind of laugh because it's, you know, Kevin and I are very different runners. We're at very different paces. Um, those of you that have been listening for a while know that Kevin wins things like marathons, half marathons, five Ks. He, you know, like his goal going out into the, in these races, a lot of times is to win and that's part of what we're going to be talking about today because, um, never in my life have I started a race hoping that I would be number one. Like I never started a race. Thinking like I have a chance to win this race overall. And so we have a very different mentality when it comes to racing. And I think it's, um, really cool for us to kind of get into a discussion here, because one of the topics that we do want to talk about is racing the clock versus racing other humans. And, you know, Kevin, as someone that is. Trying to win every race that he enters in, in theory, right? Potentially, um, has a different strategy, has a different mindset than a lot of us do, because I think a lot of you listening to this are probably more similar to me. I mean, some of you might be similar to Kevin, but, um, I think a lot of you are more like me where you're going out every time you race and trying to essentially race yourself and see. See what you can do on any given day and try to be better than you were before or set a new PR or set, um, hit whatever race goal you have for yourself, which may or may not be a number. But for a lot of people, there is some sort of number involved here. So let's start off by just kind of talking about this five K and some of the expectations going into this race, because even those are different between you and I, like I know you have a lot of people, Kevin works at the school, the high school. That hosts this race. It's the same high school that we both coach at as well and No one I would say Came up to me ahead of time and asked me How I was going to do in the race or if I was going to win right and that's fine I'm not like offended or upset about that At all. But you had quite a few of those types of questions, didn't you? That's what

Kevin:

most people ask me beforehand. Like most people that I haven't seen in years, like there are people who graduated years ago who come back for the race and they're like, Hey Coach Brown, you win in it today. Like that's their opening question to me.

Angie:

Okay. Now, to be fair, as a little bit of history here, you have won most of the races. This of this race in history like there's only I mean less than a handful or maybe it maybe maybe we're up to a handful Of times this is how many years is this 15 years 14 years. What was this year? It was like, it's been, they've been running it for about 15 years, I think, you know, we can, we can look it up later, but we'll say, we'll say around 15 years, they've been running this race and you've won at least 10 of them. I would say

Kevin:

that sounds about right. Cause like

Angie:

you didn't win. There was one year that you went head to head and like you got, beat by somebody. There was last year that you didn't win obviously because it was the week after your 100 mile. The week, the year before that you didn't win because it was the week before your marathon. It was

Kevin:

the day before my marathon. Oh sorry,

Angie:

the day before your marathon. So you just kind of use it as a shakeout run and then we got in the car and drove to Jacksonville for your marathon.

Kevin:

I still out kicked a guy at the end though.

Angie:

Yeah. So that's three that I can think of off the top of my head. And there, so there may have been, um, Like one or two others that you didn't win. But so just so everyone understands, like, this is a very valid question because Kevin usually wins this race, right? So that, that does, it's not surprising that that's what people will kind of ask you,

Kevin:

right? But it's, it's weird to win a race because you never know who's going to show up at this thing because it's, it's a round. Like Christmas break. So there could be kids coming home from college. So I could be going up against some like 19 year old who's literally training in college. Like I could be going against somebody who's, you know, down in Florida, visiting their family. This happened when I ran used. Race half marathons, I put myself in a few half marathons and I'm like, I think I might be able to win one of these things. And every single time it seemed like there was somebody from a completely different state. Like the, I did a Fort Lauderdale one and some guys showed up from New York.

Angie:

Didn't he show up from out of the country? Wasn't there a guy from like Germany or Belgium or something? There was a guy

Kevin:

from Belgium one time. I'm like, are you kidding? Like I had this lockdown except for the guy from Belgium. Didn't expect him to roll into West Palm, but it was So you never quite know who's going to show up last year even if I had not just run a hundred miles I still think that I just would have gotten waxed by the guy that ended up winning it because he was super super fast And also every year that I run it. I am another year older. So I'm never quite sure You know how? Fast i'm going to go but as you just pointed out It's also it's been three years since i've legitimately raced a 5k because I don't race 5ks I race this because it's the high school 5k Of the high school that I work at so I just I always do it but I didn't race it last year and I didn't race it the year before so it's been years since I have legitimately raced a 5k and And that itself adds a whole heck of a lot of challenge to it.

Angie:

Yeah. And so, you know, when people do come up to you and, and ask you that question, what do you typically answer them?

Kevin:

Uh, that honestly, I say, I don't know. We'll S we'll see who shows up is usually how I answer it. Because it, for a while, I used to try and give a whole lot more nuanced answer to it and be like, Oh, it, you know, I think that I might be able to do this. And it turns out no one really cares. No one really wanted those details. Like they, they just think that it's a clever way of, of asking me a question. Like, it's a clever way to say hi. Hey, haven't seen you in a while. You're going to win the race today. Like they think that they're the first person that came up with that is usually how that conversation goes. And so I've determined that the best answer is, I don't know, we'll see who else shows up. And then it kind of makes them stop and think, like, oh yeah, it probably does matter who else shows up.

Angie:

Yeah, and so I think that that's an interesting thing, though, and kind of takes us into that topic of, like, racing the clock versus racing people. Because, you know, going into it, your expectation, like, Do you expect to win? Like in your head, I mean, I kind of know this answer, um, cause we've talked about this so many times, but like, what would you say, like, you know, your expectations were going into this race,

Kevin:

I expect to get top three. Usually how I go into the race is I expect to get top three and we'll see how it goes depending on who else shows up I've been racing for a long time. So I've got a lot of race strategies under my belt Like this is actually how we kind of came up with the idea is after the race you and I were talking About one of the other guys that I thought might really give me a good fighting shot at winning this thing and so I was like, Oh yeah, well, after we made the first turn, I could hear how hard he was breathing and the guy on the lead bike was turning around and he was like cheering for him because they, they worked together at the local running shoe store. And I'm like, I think that I can take this guy. Yeah. So like I already had. Two or three different strategies of how I might try to beat this guy head to head and you're like, oh, I've never really thought about that that early in the race. Like I was a quarter mile in.

Angie:

Yeah, well, not only that, but I think it also shows your experience with racing that you can even determine that that quickly in the race. Like, I think that and this is really highlights the difference between the two of you. Your running history and your experience versus mine, because you started off competitively running when you were 14 years old and really in this world of cross country. So in cross country, the time doesn't really matter, especially where you grew up in the, like the, the era of cross country when you started, because when you started the way that Kevin explained it to me was that all of the races were Around three miles, but a lot of them were on trails. And so it wasn't quite sure it wasn't like, okay Well, this is exactly measured out to 3. 1 miles on the dot and you know There was some that were more hilly than others and others that were harder terrain And so it was hard to compare one course to another and so you weren't really racing the clock as much You were just racing other people because in cross country Your place matters. You're the time on the clock is completely irrelevant in cross country. It just matters what place you finish in, because that gives you the number of points that you score for your team.

Kevin:

Right. Which is how I try and take this whole idea of racing other people to help coach the cross country kids that we're currently doing, or anybody that does like A decent number of local races are in their area. You start recognizing other runners. You're like, Oh, I know that person. That person gave me a good fight last time we raced. So if you're in front of that person, you feel like it was a good day. You feel like, Oh, I really, I raced well today because you're able to recognize some of the runners that show up, you know. At some of these various local races. Like if we go to, to the race around the corner at the, at the YMCA, there's probably going to be some local runners that I recognize and be like, Ooh, I gotta make sure I stay, I try and keep ahead of that guy. I, I know how to take this person. That person doesn't have a great kick. This person has an awesome kick. So if I want to win it, I got to leave them early. Like I, I know some of the local runners and that happened in high school also. Like you get. Very clear on if you can still be with somebody with 200 meters to go, how that's going to go, like, is that going to play out in my favor? And usually the answer was no, that did not play out in my favor.

Angie:

Yeah. But I think that for a lot of us, I mean, I would invite you to think right now, as you're listening to this podcast, have you ever thought about that? Like, do you go into a race thinking, okay, I really want to beat that person. Maybe you have kind of those like race, Nemesis is in nemesis. What's the plural of nemesis?

Kevin:

Octopi.

Angie:

No, I

Kevin:

think it's nemesis.

Angie:

Oh, that sounds fun. But like, do you have those people that you are competitive with locally that you kind of know? And you're like, I, you know, I really hope I beat Sarah today. You know, whatever it is. Um, or are you going into the clock? Or into the race trying to beat the clock. Why are you laughing?

Kevin:

I'm laughing because it's a good thing Sarah wasn't running because she's super, super fast. Sarah,

Angie:

I think Sarah did run, but she ran it with her 10 year old daughter.

Kevin:

Oh, then that's a good, good chance that I can stay ahead of her then. See, look

Angie:

at that. I beat Sarah that, this race too. It's probably the ever, lonely time I've ever beat Sarah. There you go.

Kevin:

There you go. There you

Angie:

go. So anywho, um, uh, going back to, you know, racing humans versus racing the clock, I'd love to kind of just invite you to think about that idea. And if you are someone more like me, that every time you go into a race, you're thinking about the clock or you're racing the clock, or you're just thinking about yourself, like, I just want to do my best, you know, maybe you're not the best. As focused on the numbers, but you're focused on your effort level, right? You're, you're like, okay, I just want to be able to push myself. I want to cross that finish line and I want to really know that I push myself. Great. Fantastic. That is a huge, a great goal that we talk about with our clients all the time. But sometimes it is kind of fun to race another human. Like I know that I have done this in the past and I've kind of like picked out. I've used this strategy. Um, to kind of help me not fall back when I start to feel tired or if I start to feel like, okay, I'm starting to fade here, I'll pick someone randomly and just kind of attach myself and I'm like, I'm not going to let that person out of my sight now. Like that person, not that I was racing that person that I wanted to beat that person, but I just didn't want to fall behind and let that person get away from me. Would you think that that's is that kind of similar is that kind of the same thing not

Kevin:

really no totally different because in that Case that's the same as like when you're in front that you want to keep up with the lead bike Yeah the lead bike their only job is to keep an eye like they keep looking over their shoulder to see where you are so that You know They make sure that they're not pulling away because their job is to not hold a certain pace. Their job is specifically not to pace you. It's to just try to stay an even distance ahead of you. So when we turned and hit this like really windy stretch, the lead bike needed to slow down. When I'm picked it up at the end, the lead bike needed to pick it up. It's, The, the lead bikes job is to maintain my pace while being like 25 feet in front of me. It's a very tough job to do because you're not quite sure what the people behind you were doing. You have to keep tone of your shoulder. So I feel like that's more of the idea is you're trying to keep up with the person that doesn't even realize they're racing you. Whereas. I know the other people that I'm racing. They know that they're racing me and you can use strategies to try and mess with them, which I don't think you necessarily get in. You're like, I'm going to imaginarily race this person in the race that they don't know that I'm racing them.

Angie:

So this is interesting. So a lot of us, we, we talk about how amazing the running community is. And we talk about how, you know, we want everyone to win and our success doesn't mean anything about anybody else's success. Where does beating people fit into that? Like to genuinely try to like, because you have talked to me about this, like using mental strategies to break people like, and those are the exact words that you use. You're like, I know that if I. Just once I turn the corner and I could take off, I would break him mentally. And I'm like, what? Like, and that's, it just seems like very negative. So how do you kind of fit that in? I know that it's not because watching the Olympics, I mean, the people are very strategic in this kind of things. And then they cross the finish line and they give each other a hug and they're all very happy for one another. But where, what do you have to say about that idea? Yeah. I mean,

Kevin:

I was at the finish line. I congratulated second place. They came over to me, like the guy who got third came over to me and was like, Oh, that was a great race. You had there. I said, thanks. You ran a great one.

Angie:

But it's like, I think that a lot of runners are like, let's build each other up. And that's one of the things that I really like to do during races. Like there was this teenage girl that was running in front of me and she was like, I don't know. She's probably tween or early teens and she was wearing this purple tank top and she was like in front of me. And then she'd have to like, As I would run by her, I'm like, come on, let's go. You know, like you're doing great. And I was like cheering her on and I was, anytime I was like running by somebody that needed to take a walking break, I was cheering them on in my head. I wasn't like, Hey, be that person, you know? Like, so I think it's, I don't know. Is it just a different mentality when you're at the front of the pack?

Kevin:

I think it has to be like, if you're, if you're racing for a win, You have to take out the, like, I mean, don't get me wrong. It would have been great. I actually kind of wish that I'd run a little bit faster. I wish that there was somebody pushing me a little bit harder, not a whole heck of a lot harder because winning is kind of nice. Um, but I think that I could have gone a little bit faster if there was someone closer to me. So that would have been a little bit nice. And I think that's where the support for each other comes in is. If I'm feeling good. And this is the thing is I wasn't feeling great. I'd been sick for a couple of weeks leading into this race that kind of like adjusted race expectations. Um, so at that point I really was just hoping to hang on for a win, but normally, especially in this race, especially as I've raced for years, I've gotten to a place that even if I don't win it, if I've got good competition around me and we all kind of pushed each other to like a really good. You know, performance, a really fast time, just tried to really get the best out of each other. That was a good day for everybody, regardless of where I finished placewise. You know, last time I ran an ultra marathon, I was running for a while with the guy who ended up winning it and with the guy who ended up getting second in it. And we were just running along together in an ultra. I feel like that even up at the front, because you're going for so many hours, Yeah, I'm still racing this person, but I don't have to exactly race them right now. Like we're going to work together for a little bit because we're still technically, we're racing the course right now. And, and right now, 60, 70 miles from the finish line, we're going to work together a

Angie:

60 or 70 miles.

Kevin:

I know it's funny. Um, January is going to be awesome. Um, But right now the two of us are racing against the course and eventually we're gonna have to race against each other turned out They just ran away from me Eventually, we'll get to a point where we race each other But there's you know, there's a story in in marathon racing that the race doesn't happen until you've already run 20 miles So there's a lot even if you watch, you know elite marathoners most of the time They're all in a big giant cluster for mile after mile after mile where they're just trying to get it done

Angie:

Yeah, probably at least until halfway

Kevin:

as efficiently as possible because it's so hard to run for like two hours by yourself. Like if you break the group early, you're probably going to get caught because the group will work together and catch you catch back up.

Angie:

Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons you remember that guy that took off in the Boston Marathon a few years ago. Well, I know, but like when he first did it, like when he first did it and all of a sudden he just took off, like, and everyone was like, what is this guy doing? Like, he is not going to be able to hold this. And he held on for a while and then he got swallowed up. And every single year he did it. He just kept holding longer and longer and longer. And people would be like, Talked to him about his race strategy and he's like, yeah, I just can't hold it long enough yet Like I just need to keep stretching it out. This is still gonna be my race strategy I'm not changing it but it was just like what in the world is this guy doing because That's not typically what you see you do typically see people go out and kind of stay in that controlled pack and then it does become more strategic at some point in the race like usually halfway or

Kevin:

Yeah, there's, you've got like two groups on that guy. You have the people who think that he's out of his mind and that that's just a dumb way to race. He's going to get eaten up by a pack. And then you've got the people who think that he's racing like Prefontaine, who always kind of stated that his goal was to run the race as fast as possible from the time they shoot the gun until we cross the finish line. Like, it's just going to be all out. The entire. distance. But the thing is that Prefontaine capped his distance at the 10k. Like there's, there's something to be said of kind of getting your rhythm going for the first 10 ish miles of a marathon.

Angie:

Well, I mean, it'd be interesting to see though what Pre would have done if he would have stayed alive, you know, like he, he died very young. Yes, very true. How old was he? Like, was he mid twenties or still early twenties? No,

Kevin:

mid twenties.

Angie:

Mid twenties. Yeah. So it still would have been interesting to see, you know, what he ended up doing with the rest of his running career. But, um, all that to say, you know, your own personal goals, you, you mentioned that your race expectations and personal goals were a little different because of your sickness because you were sick for a couple of weeks leading up to this race. How did you change your goals and expectations?

Kevin:

So like I kind of had a time goal. If I was healthy, I would have had a time goal that I was chasing. I didn't. So then once the time goal is essentially out the window, outside of, you know, the, the extra credit that has been offered to some of the freshmen in my school, because there's, there's a religion teacher at our school who puts extra credit of all, all you have to do is run the 5k. And the kids are like, Oh, sweet. We can run the 5k. Yeah. And you have to beat Mr. Brown. And they're like, well, how fast is he? And so then all the kids come to me and they're like, how fast are you? And I'm like, I don't know. I haven't raced a 5k in a few years. So they're like, well, how fast did you used to be? Like when I was what your age, because I was your age. Almost 30 years ago. Like that's, that's the funny thing is it's, I've been racing for so long. So I really, I wasn't sure how fast I could go. I know what my watch thinks I can do, but my watch is just a blatant liar. Um, so as, as everybody's watches are, they're just liars.

Angie:

Well, I can't even find the race predictor on my watch. I was trying to find it the night before the race. Just to like, see what it said. And I couldn't even find it. So maybe that's a good thing.

Kevin:

Probably because mine is so ludicrously wrong. Um, so ultimately I showed up on race morning thinking, all right, let's see who shows up today. And. I'm going to go out there and try and win. And then I'll throw some race strategies in and see the best that I possibly can do. You know, it was a little windy on the one, on the one section of it. So I'm like, Oh, well, this would be an interesting place. Um, but we'll, we'll see how it goes.

Angie:

Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say then is that you like before the whole sickness thing, you would have. Tried racing the clock also keeping in mind that you wanted to win the race but you would have been racing the clock more than racing people or Racing people first and then racing the clock with a time goal like in your head. What is it? Like, what's the hierarchy there?

Kevin:

That's a good question. That depends on who else is there, which is why I make this decision about a quarter mile in like who's around, how hard are they pushing? Is it going to be me against the clock? Or is it going to be me against this other person, me against these three other people? And then I have to decide, you know, is so

Angie:

then what do you go into the race with? Like what's your goal going into the race knowing that, okay, I'm going to decide in about a quarter of a mile what my strategy is going to be.

Kevin:

I usually have a time, like a, a, a vague idea of a time goal. And then if that lines up to going out and racing these people, I'll be like, all right, great, let's, let's go race these people and I'll probably get around that time goal. But usually it's, it's racing people. It's more fun to race people. Honestly, just it, it is. I don't know. How, how do you go into a race? Because I tend to go into a race thinking, let's see who shows up and how am I going to be able to like go head to head against them? How do you go into a race?

Angie:

I don't think about other people. And I know that sounds weird and kind of selfish, but it doesn't like, like I, I've never gone into a race being like, I get, let's see who shows up and see how I'm going to perform against this person. Like, I think that, and that's been. Probably a result of the fact that I've never really raced competitively like you like I, you know, do local races and things like that. So you can call that competition, but like I didn't run in high school, right? I didn't grow up with cross country and track and that kind of competitive mindset around running and running in that phase of my life was always punishment.

Kevin:

So when you show up at a race and you're like warming up, do you look around at the other people at all?

Angie:

No.

Kevin:

So weird.

Angie:

I mean, I, I look at them to see if I know anyone to say hello. Like, so I'm like looking around for people that I know, but not like trying to, uh, scale my competition in any way, like scope out my competition.

Kevin:

That's weird. That's what I spend most of the warmup doing.

Angie:

Scoping your competition? Yeah. Really?

Kevin:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And then sometimes doing strides, like right at the starting line, just so that everybody can see.

Angie:

No, I've never done that before. And I, I mean, I'm curious what our listeners, um, how they would respond to. So if you guys want to reach out over on Instagram at real life runners and let us know, uh, how you. Operate on the starting line or warming up or getting ready for a race. If you're like scoping out your competition or not, because I've never scoped out my competition. Like it seems

Kevin:

so weird to me.

Angie:

Yeah. Well, because in my mind, again, I don't know who's showing up. Of course, that's why you have to

Kevin:

scope out the competition.

Angie:

But I also don't, I mean, there's so many people, how do you even know, like who's in your age group? And that's part of it too. I think is. I would not be racing for a top spot. So like, I can't just look at all females. Cause I know that my current ability is not going to win the race overall. And it's not going to win the female division of the race. Right. So it's not like I can just look at all females and be like, yeah, I can beat her. I can beat her. I can beat her. Like. I, the only thing that I would be looking to do and like my goal in this race is usually to be able to place in my age group is, um, and so I kind of know in years past what it takes to, um, place in the age group, right? Like what time ish would, would likely get me a place in the age group and that's kind of what I go for, but this time going into the race, Um, I mean, this has been, this was my first race in a year. Like I haven't raced since the last 5k that we did here. And so going into this, I, my goal was to beat my last time because I wasn't really happy with my time last year. Um, knowing that I am in better shape. And at the same time, I am not in the same shape I was in like five or six years ago when I ran my PR in this race, right? So it's kind of like this interesting place of wanting to do my best, wanting to hit a good, like a time that I feel good about, and also knowing It's very, very unlikely that I'm going to hit a PR, right? So I'm kind of like in this new phase where I still care about the time kind of, but like also not really. And I noticed myself going into this race, really debating what I wanted to do, because part of me really wanted to push and kind of see what I was able to do in this race. Like I have done some 5k specific speed work in the last like month or so to kind of lead up to this race and be like, what? What pace could I hold for this thing? And at the same time, taking real life into account, I was out of town for a business event. I did a lot of traveling. I was exhausted. And I know that like, you know, you've been sick. The kids have been sick. We've just been so crazy busy. Um, and knowing that my, just my energy level was super low last week leading into this race as well. So wanting to, um, honor that. And at the same time, see what I can do. And at the same time, not really want to push myself cause I know how painful five K's are, you know? So like part of me was even kind of going into this, like wanting to give myself an out, but also not wanting to take it. Like I was checking with our daughter that was going to run the race. Cause one of our daughters decided not to run this year and the other daughter did. And, um, I was checking with her and asking her, do you want me to run with you? And she's like, no, mom, you can, you can push. Like, I know you want to push this race. And I was like, yeah, but I don't, but maybe I don't really, you know, cause it's like, it's also putting yourself on the line like that and. Being willing to fail, being willing to put it out there and. Maybe not get the result that you're hoping for, and that's a vulnerable place. And I think that, you know, a lot of times I go into these races like, well, what will people think? I'm a running coach. I'm a, I'm a this, I'm a that. I'm a coach at the school. I'm a coach online. Like, does my time matter? And like, truly it does not. You know, I'm a very good coach, regardless of what my personal time is. You know, people don't question Bill Belichick's coaching ability. You know, he's one guy. A ton of Super Bowls, but you can't put him on the field right now to go play football with those guys, right? Like

Kevin:

well, he's 72

Angie:

You know what I mean like your your own personal ability does not determine your coaching ability and I know that logically But I do think also that In this online coaching space and social media and all these things like, uh, I, I'm still trying to kind of detach that part, like those two parts of, of myself of like, there's the runner Angie, and then there's the coach Angie and the runner Angie's ability, like own physical ability does not determine how good I am as a coach.

Kevin:

Well, I mean, if you, if you really think that it does, then you just take the picture from the finish line and then Photoshop whatever time you want across the finish line and then you can be as fast as you want online.

Angie:

Perfect. I mean, I just don't post my time because the other thing too, is like, I don't want other people comparing themselves to me because I know that people use time either as. Something to make themselves feel better about themselves or to make themselves feel worse about themselves. And I don't want people to use my time in either fashion, right? Like, because your running journey is yours. And that's really important. I think what I, um, think a lot about going into the race is like, this is my part of my journey. And so my goal and my expectation going into this race was beating my time from last year because that was really, you know, we just looked it up. This was the 13th annual, um, 5k school, 5k, but there was a couple of years that we lost because of COVID. Right. And so my times and my PRs were, um, Best pre COVID. I think I was like 2019 was really 2018, 2019 was really the, the year. I think 2019 was the year that I PR'd every single race distance. And I was like really hitting some, some really good times. And then the races kind of went away for a while and I just haven't raced a lot since then, to be honest. And I've kind of shifted my focus a bit more, um, away from speed and more to strengthen building muscle and, you know, general health and fitness. So I haven't been as focused on like. Race specific types of training, but I still was curious. And so that's really what I chose to go into this race with was that sense of curiosity and just kind of see where I was. And so I had a pace goal in my head and I was essentially nailed that, which was exciting.

Kevin:

It's, it's nice to have that curiosity, but because you've raced a 5k, Part of that sense of curiosity, you already have the answer to, because the answer is, it's going to be really uncomfortable. Like that's, that's the part of racing a 5k that you do know the answer to. You're not quite sure how fast it's going to be. Like, you know what the course is. We've done this course over and over and over again. You know, you don't know who's going to show up. Apparently I check out who's showing up during the warmout and you You just see if you know anybody else at the race,

Angie:

personally,

Kevin:

um, but both of us head into the race knowing if we push ourselves, we don't know exactly what the clock is going to say, but we know that our legs are going to start screaming, slow down. This is stupid. Yeah. Like, you know, that's coming at some point in time. Yeah. And that's happening to everybody listening. If you've ever run a 5k or going to run a 5k

Angie:

race to 5k, right? Cause like, there's a lot of people that run 5ks and there's a lot of people that ran our school 5k and just kind of like went out and ran it, you know, like they weren't actually trying to push themselves. Like a lot of our cross country kids went out and they were not actually trying to race it. They were like, okay, I'm just doing this cause I have to do this because this is part of my school and I'm on this team. And, you know, this isn't. Doesn't count for anything. Like, you know, cause they're all off in like other sports, like soccer and everything now too.

Kevin:

Side story on that one. The soccer coach was joking with one of our kids. He goes, I'm feeling pretty good today. I think I might be able to actually keep up with you. And then she dropped him, just dropped him over the next hundred meters. She was gone. It was really funny.

Angie:

So, um, Where, what was I talking about before we went off on that side, side note there of, of, oh, running versus racing. Right. And I think that that's an important distinction to make too, is like, are you running a 5k or are you racing a 5k or, or insert whatever distance you want in there, you know, it could be a 10 K, a half, a full, whatever it is, it's a different experience, right? Because when you're running. Running a 5k, the goal is completion. And if you're racing it, the goal is personal challenge. I will, I'll say that, right? Because it's not always going to be your personal best. Like I knew going into this race that I. I was not going to run my personal best, my PR. Like I was not going to run my fastest time ever in this 5k. I knew that that's not the kind of shape that I'm currently in right now. Um, and so that was not my goal realistically, but my goal was to push myself through the whole race. And I will say that I did accomplish that. And I'm proud of that.

Kevin:

I think that we have that in common. Yeah, is for so long. I mean, not you for so long, but you in this race is how I've gone into so many shorter races for so long is I'm not going to PR in this race today, but I'm still going to push myself really, really hard. And it's okay. That it's not the fastest I've ever covered this distance. It's going to be the fastest that I can cover this distance today. Right

Angie:

now. Yeah.

Kevin:

And, and if, if I really feel like this is the fastest I could do it today, that's a win for me. And I felt given that I was running solo for most of the race. That, that is about as fast as I could have done that race. I think that I could have gone a little bit faster if there were people with me and, and like, you know, inspiring some more head to head competition. But I think given the conditions, I think that's about as fast as I could have gone. So I was generally satisfied with my overall result from that.

Angie:

Yeah. Which is good. And I think that that's really the transition that a lot of us need to make. In this second phase of our running journeys, because at some point we are going to transition over into, okay, well, most likely PRs are a thing of the past, but that doesn't mean that I just have to, you know, walk the whole 5k at the back of the pack. Like I can still go out and I can push myself and I can challenge myself and I can cross that finish line feeling very satisfied with my performance. And I think that's really where it comes down to. Um, and that is something that, you know, you. Both you and I did have in common, um, for this race, which I think is super cool.

Kevin:

Yeah, we get this race especially because we've done this so many times. 13th annual. That means how much race comparison do you have? Like I have so many finished times on this, let alone different training runs that we've done because we do training where it goes with a cross country and the track kids. On this little loop around campus. So I've done so many workouts on different sections of the race. I've run this loop so many, many times. I know it forward and backwards, literally forward and backwards. Um, and so that's why I think that the racing other people aspect is fun because I know the course a lot better than most of the people do. I know where I could make moves. Considering that it's just literally a rectangle, I know like, Oh, you could put a move right here and it will be a good time to make a move off of it. So, so what would

Angie:

you suggest then for those of us that aren't used to racing people, right? Those of us that are used to racing a clock, but now we know that, okay, we are transitioning into the second phase of running and. Racing the clock is not the same maybe as it used to because PRs are most likely a thing of the past. Okay, how can we transition maybe to start focusing on racing people like in a way that makes it more fun and you know, exciting. Any suggestions?

Kevin:

I mean, I think that you've got to start Either repeating some races so that you know that there's going to be some regular people that you, you see year after year, or, you know, start racing more often might be an interesting way to open it up, which would not normally be my suggestion. Like, I don't think that racing all the time is necessarily a great idea, but It's an interesting motivational tactic. It's an interesting way to be like, all right, well, I'm just going to really interact a lot with the local running community, but in a racing atmosphere. And you're going to find people who always generally show up around your finishing time. You can start raising those people and it can be a blast. Like you can be out there for three miles or for a 10 K or for whatever it is. And just go at trying to raise them and figure out how to do it. Yeah. And then at the finish line, still celebrate them and be like, that was a great race today. Whether you won it or lost it, it's, it's fun. I started having fun racing going all the way back to college when I did like cross country intramural. Like I enjoyed racing against that guy because it. It got a little different. Like when I was in college and racing on the college team, I was so far back in the race, like any person that I could knock off was beneficial because you know, it helps lower the team score. But I was so far back that it was, it was difficult to. To really be like, well, I have to, I have to catch that person. And when it's a massive cluster, it's hard to race head to head against somebody. The smaller, the group, the more you feel like you're racing head to head. So I feel like you really actually need to know some of the people around you so that you can start figuring out different race strategies to try and catch up. You know, actually beat those people as opposed to be like, all right, well, now I'm going to surge and pass that group of 10 people that I don't know and hope that I stay ahead of them.

Angie:

Yeah. I mean, that's an interesting take because, but I, I don't know how. that is because there's not a lot of, I mean, some people like to run the same races and, you know, just run, they always have those local races that they run. And I can see that that could be a good strategy, but what about people that like to travel and like to do different races and never liked to do the same race twice? I mean, would you think, I mean, kind of one of the things that. Come to me like off the top of my head is pick someone that you're going to race or pick two people that you're going to race like on the starting line and then you take off and then you kind of see where you are. And then you kind of just start picking different people throughout the course of the race and not in the way that I was. Saying before where I'm just going to try to keep up with that person, or I'm just not going to let that person get away from me. It's like, that's the person I want to beat. And then like, if I do end up in front of that person, now I'm going to pick a different person. And I kind of like just essentially pick my competitor in every single race. And then if I am ahead of that person, I can decide, okay, that's, that's fine. I'm still racing that person. Like that's still, I'm just in, you know, winning right now, or I can move on and kind of choose my next competitor. Or that. I'm targeting, uh, like on that way. I,

Kevin:

I like the strategy. What's your thought on including trash talk in the middle of the race?

Angie:

Like trash talk.

Kevin:

Like as you pass somebody, be like, all right, we're racing. Just, just so you know, we're racing.

Angie:

I don't know.

Kevin:

Cause

Angie:

I feel like that

Kevin:

way. That way they know that they're in a head to head race against you. But that feels

Angie:

uncomfortable because, like, my in race talk has always been very supportive.

Kevin:

My in race talk was super supportive at the half mile. I turned to the guy next to me and said, careful on this turn because the students tend to stand on the wrong side of the sidewalk and you might accidentally run them over. But I actually said that so that I could get out that length of a sentence and let him know I wasn't as breathing as hard as he was. So, I don't know. Strategy. Maybe it's a difference in trash talk, but I feel like that could also, it's, add some fun. Like, what's the worst that happens if you turn to a random stranger in the middle of the race and be like, just so you know. It's the two of us head to head.

Angie:

It's on game on sucka.

Kevin:

Like

Angie:

they

Kevin:

may give you a confused look. If they do try the person on the other side, I bet you can find somebody.

Angie:

Hey, you want to race? Yeah.

Kevin:

Like, Hey, you want to race? Because everybody's doing it, but you're going to find somebody in there that's like, actually, yes, I do. I do want to race you.

Angie:

Let's make it competitive right now. Like whatever you can do. Do I like that strategy of like, Hey, you want to race? Like kind of like

Kevin:

Increase the feeling of competition against the people immediately around you. I think,

Angie:

cause then it's an option. It's not like, Hey, sucka, guess what? You know,

Kevin:

I'm beating you,

Angie:

but, um, okay. That, that could be an option too. I could see that being kind of fun. Um, some people you're definitely going to get weird looks from. I'm sure you're

Kevin:

going to, but you're all out there running in short shorts. So of course you're getting weird. Like it's going to be fine. And there's going to be bananas and bagels afterwards. So it's fine. There

Angie:

you go. Hopefully they're not slimy like the ones from last weekend.

Kevin:

They were delicious. They were super cold.

Angie:

Okay, well, that's good. Um, well, here we are at 42 minutes. I thought this was going to be a short episode, but I think I really liked what we covered today. And I think that, um, I'm hoping that you guys got some really good stuff that you can apply to your own racing journey, whether you're racing the clock or racing other people, you know, maybe. Try Kevin's strategy of racing other people and find somebody that you want to race. So it's not just you and the clock and let us know how it goes. Let us know if you have more fun with it, because racing in this second phase of life really is about health and fitness, of course, but it's also about having fun. And just remember that running is a hobby for us and we are supposed to be having fun. And so don't take yourselves too seriously, have goals, challenge yourself. Like there is something really beautiful to be said of like, when you finish, like when I finished that race. And again, this is my first race in a year, right? So like when I finished that race this year, I felt really proud of myself for challenging myself for pushing myself and for not letting myself take the out that I really desperately wanted to kind of give myself. But also I shouldn't say desperately because I, if I would have wanted it, I would have taken it because I can do whatever I want. So I didn't actually want it.

Kevin:

No, if you, if you really wanted the out, you had multiple outs within the race too. Plenty. Because you could have, like. That soft sand, you could have been like, oops, turned my ankle.

Angie:

Oh yeah. I haven't thought about that. Cause my ankle did kind of turn a little in the one section. And I was like, Ooh. And then I was like, I could have totally used that as like, that thought actually crossed my mind. Yup.

Kevin:

Yeah. That is, that is a sign that you're racing. Like if, if it ever occurred to you in the middle of the race, that you should look for a pothole. So that you can pretend to turn your ankle and call it a day. You are officially racing that race. Like that's a sign that you're going all in.

Angie:

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, if I go all in, if I put it all on the line and if it doesn't, if it blows up, like that's going to really stink, you know, but if I give myself this excuse or this reason that it blew up, then it's justified. Yeah.

Kevin:

I mean, that, that was the, the stress on me is I had to make sure that I showed up enough because the kids at the race who are literally standing at every corner telling you to turn right. I teach a bunch of them. I teach most of the kids who are standing at the corners throughout this race. Like every time I made a turn, it was a lot of go Mr. Brown. And like, that's if it didn't end well, if, if my race fell apart, it would have been an interesting conversation on, on the following Monday. You know, like I got some congratulations today, but most of them, honestly, they're high school kids. They don't care. They, they kind of forget about it by the time Monday rolls around. It's true. It's honestly is really what happens. Most people do. And that's why I say have fun and, and ask other people in the race. Hey, Hey, you want to race today? Because. They're probably going to forget about it later, or they'll have a fun story over dinner. So whatever you can do to increase your fun, and I think it's fun to race other people. So give it a shot. It's also fun to race other people who have not been alive as long as you've been racing, which, which was the guy that I was going up against this weekend. That was, that was fun times. I

Angie:

know that's so wild. It's so crazy. All right, you guys. So, um, head over to Instagram. Let us know what your thoughts are. Are on this episode. And if you haven't yet, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts or on Spotify so that more people can find the show and we can help more runners to feel good in this second phase of their running journey. And as always, thanks for joining us. This has been the real life runners podcast, episode number 390. Now get out there and run your life.