377: Does Running Require Voluntary Suffering?

In episode 377 of the Real Life Runners Podcast, we delve into the concept of voluntary suffering in running and debate whether it's a necessary component of our sport. We share our unique perspectives on what constitutes voluntary suffering and how it varies among runners. Our discussion includes personal anecdotes about training for different distances, from miles to marathons, and even ultra-marathons, highlighting individual preferences for short vs. long-distance running. We also talk about how our willingness to endure suffering can shape our performance, including the differences between running and racing and how external goals like the Boston Marathon can influence motivation. Additionally, we address the expectations and actual experiences of both new and seasoned runners, including high school athletes, and stress how mindsets can evolve. Towards the end, we touch on unnecessary suffering and how it can be counterproductive if not balanced well. We conclude by emphasizing the importance of aligning training and goals with the level of discomfort you're willing to endure.

02:03 Defining Voluntary Suffering in Running

03:31 Personal Experiences with Suffering in Running

06:14 The Role of Discomfort in Growth and Performance

08:57 Coaching and Observations on Suffering

23:28 Voluntary Suffering vs. Unnecessary Suffering

25:32 Balancing Suffering and Enjoyment in Running

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Transcript

Angie: 0:00

Welcome to the Real Life Runners Podcast, episode number 377. Today we're talking about voluntary suffering in running, and does running require voluntary suffering? We've got an interesting take on this, so stay tuned. What's up runners. Welcome to the show today. We're talking all about suffering, which isn't really the sexiest topic to necessarily get into because who wants to suffer, but at the same time, we're all runners. And I think that anybody that looks at us that is not a runner. Automatically thinks that this is exactly what we're signing up for. Like, why would you put yourself through that? Why would you do that to yourself? I know that there's a lot of people that kind of have that mindset of that. Any sort of running is putting yourself in voluntary suffering. And we disagree with, that's not exactly the point of this podcast, but what do you think about that?

Kevin: 1:12

Yeah. Especially as the distances start getting longer, there's a lot of people that suggest that running long distances is certainly signing up for voluntary suffering, but. If you think back to when you first got into running, any run was probably not that comfortable of a thing. So then what most runners do, what most recreational runners do are literally paying money to go out and put themselves through discomfort. And that's what we're doing. But that's in a race environment. I think that most people, if you've been running for a while, most runs are not voluntary suffering because most runs themselves are not suffering. When you're pushing yourself really hard, there's a level to it, but there's a whole lot of easy runs that are just enjoyable and nice and your body feels good. It's nice. Like mental recovery, like everything about it is, in my opinion, the opposite of suffering, especially on an easy day. It's nice.

Angie: 2:03

Yeah, so let's start by talking and defining about what is voluntary suffering in running. And it's just like Kevin said, it's placing yourself in a certain level of discomfort So then the next question becomes what is that level? And I would say it's different for everyone because I often look at Kevin doing 100 mile races and think to myself, why in the world would you ever put your body through that? And I also see the other side of that whole idea of I just want to see if I can. I wonder if I could there's every now and then I will see Kevin or, the other runners in ultra races, or sometimes if we're Kevin will sometimes watch the ultra races on YouTube and stuff here at the house, and I'll see these inspiring people and think to myself, wow, that's really cool. I wonder, that would be really cool to run a hundred miles. And then I go out for my five mile run and I think to myself

Kevin: 3:00

no. But there's a level of distance running that I just enjoy a hot, a whole lot more than you. Like I've always enjoyed running longer distances. I think more than you have enjoyed running longer distances. You enjoy going shorter and faster more than I do. There was, what is it a few years ago? I thought I was going to try and run my fastest mile since high school. And I was. My upper 30s at the time?

Angie: 3:23

Yeah, I think that was the year that you were going to try to run your fastest mile and your fastest marathon in the same year.

Kevin: 3:30

Yeah, I was 0 for 2 on that. But because when I started training to run my fastest mile, I realized that the training that I was going to need to do to Train to run my fastest mile was a whole lot of suffering that I did not want to partake in and training for my fastest Marathon was suffering that I was okay with so I think that's where this discomfort you get to choose Your discomfort you get to Decide what level of discomfort you want what type of discomfort short fast workouts you get nice recovery and you're like, oh, I'm only going hard for a minute You're going really hard and it's a different level of suffering then you're going for two three four hours Which is this like long grinding dull suffering

Angie: 4:15

Yeah, and I think that there's also a difference between running and racing. Like when we talk about what is voluntary suffering, it like, I personally think there is a difference between just going out for a run and signing up for a race, and I think this is one of the reasons that I personally. Don't sign up for as many races as you do. Like I'm not a huge fan of races. And I think that part of that is probably because I don't really want to put myself in that level of voluntary suffering. Whereas I'm happy to do so on a speed workout. I do multiple speed, like at least one speed workout a week, oftentimes two, I've been adding in a second speed workout every week because of the things that I've been experimenting with. But there's a level of voluntary suffering. Whenever you're working hard, right? Like whether or not you're running or lifting weights, like there's the whole point of working out is. Doing something. I guess if you're working out with a goal, there's maintenance workouts, right? Like you can just exercise where you can go out for a walk or you can do Certain types of exercise that I wouldn't classify as suffering But if you are striving for performance goals in some way, whether that is getting faster Pushing your body to run longer than you ever have before lifting heavier weights like there's You know, you have a specific type of performance goal There is going to be some level of voluntary suffering that you're putting yourself through or discomfort pain Maybe you don't use the word suffering but there is definitely going to be discomfort involved

Kevin: 5:45

But I think that applies with any level of performance. If you are uncomfortable giving a speech in front of somebody, but you want to improve your public speaking, you're going to have to put yourself in uncomfortable positions and will someone standing up on a stage and giving, giving a talk in front of a group of people might not refer to that as suffering as voluntary suffering. I think it is. I think they're choosing to put themself in an uncomfortable situation to improve their ability to perform that task.

Angie: 6:14

Yeah. And that's what's required for growth, right? Discomfort. And I think maybe that's, is it a verbiage thing? Cause when we, when you suggested this topic for the podcast, you were listening to another podcast and they were talking about a certain person that loves to put himself through suffering and some people would argue. It's unnecessary. Some people would say it's necessary. He would probably say that it's. It's necessary, right? So I guess it's all about how you define it. And I think that's leads into our second point here of is voluntary suffering necessary is. Do we want to keep using the word suffering? Do we want to switch to discomfort at this point? What are you thinking when you think of the word suffering?

Kevin: 6:56

No, I think suffering is the correct choice because to me the suffering is the opposite of this world of comfort that we live in. Because we live in a world that creates so much convenience and ease for us. And discomfort is the opposite. I just said we live in a world of comfort. But it's that comfort and ease. And the opposite of that is not just discomfort, but it's this level of actual suffering that we're going through. It's not just making things difficult for the sake of difficulty. It's not just I could Google the answer, or I could stop and think about it. It's Putting yourself in a situation where you have the uncomfortableness and you are purposely choosing the more uncomfortable, more difficult path. That's the suffering.

Angie: 7:41

Yeah. And I think that there are people that would argue that suffering is a part of being human, that there is this inherent level of suffering that we all need to go through in our lives because no, pretty much no human. leaves this life without some level of pain or suffering. There's a lot of really hard things that we go through in life.

Kevin: 8:02

And, so much of that is based off of a human connection. No one's making it through this life winning alive on the other side. We're all coming to an end at some point, and we're watching people around us come to ends, and that is going to lead to suffering, unless You've completely disconnected socially from every person around you. There's going to be loss and that's suffering. So I would suggest that this sort of voluntary, this choosing to practice suffering, this practice of uncomfortable situations, whether it's In a hard workout in a really long run, you're lifting something heavy and you're going to be sore afterwards. You're public speaking like whatever it is where you're choosing this discomfort and suffering in the process, I think actually prepares us to deal with the other, more reality based sufferings of life that are not voluntary suffering that is thrust upon us from being human.

Angie: 8:57

And if we bring this back to running, this was one of the discussions that Kevin and I was ha that were, we were having on our walk last night and we were talking about our cross country runners and how frustrating it can sometimes be like, I typically don't get frustrated with it anymore because I've just learned to accept it because I have come to the point where. I understand that there are some runners that have so much more potential than they're going to put forth that they're going to give at practice. And I know that they can be way faster than what their race times are showing, but they're clearly not. willing to put in the effort necessary to do that. And I do my best as a coach to try to encourage them and motivate them and try to hit it from different angles. But ultimately, I don't get frustrated because I released the outcome because the outcome is not mine to have. So I think that Going back to this idea is the level of suffering that you're willing to endure Will determine how fast or how far you can go so for our runners on the cross country team There are many of them throughout the years Several that are on our team this year that are just not willing to put themselves through Pain there like they, as soon as they start to feel, maybe not as soon as, cause I can't speak for them, but seemingly as their coaches, it seems like when they start to feel discomfort and pain, they just start walking or they just decide not to push themselves through when they could be so much faster if they just chose to put themselves in that level of discomfort.

Kevin: 10:35

And this level of discomfort, if you're not used to running, for those listeners who've been running for a long time, you have to think back to when you first got into running, or maybe there was an injury and you're coming back from a few weeks off those first few runs. As soon as you start running, There's alarm bells that start going off that you're like, Oh my God, everything hurts. There's no way I can possibly go on. And you can, you clearly can continue to go on. But the alarm bells start going off so early at the first slightest sign of any discomfort that you're like, this is awful. I could never do this. I don't know how I did this before. I'm not going to be able to do it again. And if you just keep going, It gets better, and you recognize that the alarms can just get turned down a little bit.

Angie: 11:20

Yeah, and that was really fun to see our cross country runners realize that last week, because we were hitting the fourth week of practice and they all went out on a run and so many of them came back and were like wait, that was actually not that bad. That was almost enjoyable question mark. And they were very confused as these high school kids that have been telling themselves how much they hated running and how much they, were terrible runners, whatever stories that they were telling themselves, but they also. Continued to put themselves through it, right? They didn't quit the team, so they were willing to put themselves through some level of voluntary suffering. They just weren't willing to push themselves even harder. They were willing to show up at practice and do what the coaches were saying, and telling them to do, but they weren't able or willing to put themselves in that higher level of suffering, but now that running starting to feel a little better and they start to see more progress and they start to see their times start to get faster. It's always fun to see which ones at this point will start to lean in to it more, right? Because there's going to definitely be some that stay in that zone and they might get a little bit faster, but they're just not willing to push themselves. And some, once they start to see themselves getting in shape, and this happens to us as real life runners as well, we start to see those results. We start to see that, Oh, three miles. It's actually starting to feel pretty easy maybe I could go four, maybe I could go five. We start to get this curiosity and this sense of maybe I could do more, maybe I could go faster. And so it's going to be fun to see like which ones decide to lean into that discomfort and that suffering more and which ones stay where they are.

Kevin: 12:59

But you make a really good point that this corresponds perfectly to real life runners of the runners who have been doing this for a while and they've gotten to a point that three feels okay. Maybe they can go out, they do four miles every once in a while, they're regularly at three minutes, or at three miles, or maybe they're on time and they're just consistently doing their thing. 30 minutes of running, and that's fine for them. They're like, I don't know. That's what I do. That's just, that's my running routine. And it's good in terms of like health, you're getting out there and you're moving yourself, but you're never pushing enough to try to slightly increase the suffering. You remember what it took to get up to 30 minutes and you're like I don't really want to extend because that's going to be more uncomfortable. And. But then it's hard to really get much faster. Okay, with the brand new runners, if they stay at the same level of like exercise routine for a little while, they're going to gradually get faster over the course of this season. But for runners that have been there for the last two to three years, You're just not going to get any faster unless you're willing to try something new. If you're in the same running routine for year after year and you can't figure out why you're not getting any faster, it's because you're in the same running routine for year after year. There's got to be some variation along the way.

Angie: 14:14

Is when people start to get confused and oftentimes when people start to reach out to us or to some other coaching platform to figure out what to do because what they were doing was working and it seemingly stopped to work or it stopped working, right? And so they're not sure what to do next. And the same thing can happen to us women in perimenopause as our hormones start to shift, right? We are training the same way. Maybe. not doing the same exact routine. Maybe we are following like a progressive type of training plan that has worked. And, we've never had a reason for it not to work, but now all of a sudden our bodies are changing. Our hormones are shifting. Things are not what they used to be. And we're feeling more tired where we need more recovery. We've got more muscle and joint pain. And there's all this suffering involuntary suffering that has been thrust upon us. So now we're like, what? How, what level of voluntary suffering am I going to put myself through? Because all of this involuntary suffering that seems like I have no control over it is now on me that wasn't there before either.

Kevin: 15:20

Yeah. And I mean that, that's voluntary suffering has to mean something to you, but you're not just going to go out and volunteer. Most people will not just choose suffering when there is an alternative. So if we stay in the world of running and you're like There's a lot of people that want to run a certain time as though that's going to somehow be a new, a brand new thing for them. And if they can run a 5k under 30 or under 25, or they break two hours in the half marathon, whatever these times are, they've put this out there. It has to mean something to you to be willing to go through the suffering. It'll take to get it. This is very timely because the Boston marathon just dropped their standards of five minutes across the board. And so people that have been chasing a Boston marathon standard for the last couple of years, suddenly that standard just moved farther away. So if you've already been in a place of voluntary suffering and now suddenly the goalposts moved Do you want to continue to chase and maybe you do maybe you're like, yeah No, that's what I'm chasing or maybe you're like, I don't know why they moved the goalposts I'm gonna chase the goalposts that used to be there or maybe It's possible that you're like, I, these aren't the goalposts. I want to chase any further. That happened to me. There was a time that I really wanted to hit for a marathon. And I did a lot of thought work. Angie helped me through a lot of thought work to figure out why did that time mean so much to me. And once I figured out why it was, it took a lot of my desire to hit that number away. It'd still be great. I would still be really excited to hit that number, but that number didn't really have any purpose. Pull over me anymore because the reason why I was chasing it was a silly comment made by my college coach And when I really realized that's the number that I was still chasing It didn't become as exciting for me to go after anymore So I think you know these moving goalposts of Boston setting the times is something to a new standard, it might take some of the enthusiasm from people. It might not though.

Angie: 17:16

Yeah, it's hard to say, but I think that it's important for us to understand that anything is possible and I truly believe this, like anything that you want to achieve is possible for you. Yeah. If you're willing to put in the work and based on what you're willing to put yourself through that's really what it comes down to is it's possible for you if you're willing to put yourself through what it would take to get there and this is one of the reasons that I have not yet trained for a marathon because I'm not willing to put myself through that training because I know what The rest of my life looks like I know what other goals I have in my life, and I know how much training would take away from other areas of my life. And that's just not what I'm willing to do right now. And there's a good friend of mine. We used to be training buddies, and we used to do So many of our training runs together. We always used to do speed work together and we were always right next to each other, running the same exact paces on all, pretty much all of our training runs. There's even, speed workouts where I would beat her, but we were basically neck and neck. And any time that we would race, like actually sign up and pay money and put a bib on and go out and race. She would be me pretty much every time. I don't think I. I don't think I ever beat her. I'm, I might've beat her once, but I don't think so. I think that she has beaten me in every single race. And I I attribute that to not that she's in better shape than me, because clearly we did all of our training together, but because she was willing and able to put herself in a level of suffering that I apparently wasn't able to put it myself into or willing to put myself into, right? If you would have asked me in a lot of these races, could you have pushed yourself harder? I probably would have said I did, I pushed myself. To the level like that. I, that I could I don't think I was holding back. That felt really hard. But afterwards, obviously we always think Oh, I probably could have done a little bit more. That's every runner has that thought after they crossed the finish line, right?

Kevin: 19:15

Every single time you cross the finish line, you're like, I probably could have shaved off some time. And it's always arbitrarily in the middle miles because you always slow down in the middle miles. You start quick because of the excitement of the start of the race. And you're going to slightly slow down in the boredom of the middle fatigue is building up. So you're naturally going to slow down and you're not close enough to the finish line to keep the pace because the finish line seems too far away. That's what it is. That's how racing goes. You go to more current events, Jakob Ingebrigtsen, Olympic miler and 15 or 1500 and 5, 000 guy. Like he just finished what fourth in the. Mile and then came back and won the gold in the five K. He just ran a half marathon over the weekend and his like his commentary, people were making plenty of their own comments on it, but his own stuff that he was posting to social media was just like, I don't know why people do this. Why would you ever run that far? That seems like the worst idea ever in the training that he has to go through the. But like from my perspective, the pain and suffering that he's willing to endure in track workouts to be one of the fastest milers in the entire world, he clearly understands pain and suffering. And he was like, that is too long. That is dumb. That was essentially his takeaway is that's dumb.

Angie: 20:32

And I think that's goes back to does, what does it mean to you? And what level of suffering are you willing to endure and in what way also, because you are willing to endure. The suffering of long distances and hours and hours on your feet. Whereas me or Jakob Ingerbetson, because clearly we're like on the same plane, right? Totally. We are willing to do more of the shorter, faster things. That are much more uncomfortable in that moment, but they last a lot shorter, like much shorter period of time.

Kevin: 21:04

The workouts are an acute pain, like 200 meter repeats at faster than your mile pace is a such an acute level of pain.

Angie: 21:13

Those hurt.

Kevin: 21:14

But it's a different pain than a three hour long run. Both of those are clearly suffering.

Angie: 21:20

Which one do you think? requires more mental strength or fortitude.

Kevin: 21:25

Ooh, see both of them, the 200 meter repeats get more and more difficult as they go. But for each rep, you only have to wrap your head around one rep at a time. Exactly. So I feel like you get to keep having this mental break, even though you know there's more coming, you can separate it because the workout literally is broken into 200 meter intervals. And so you're like, I can do one and now I can do one. You don't have to say, I'm going to do 20. You say, I'm going to do one.

Angie: 21:54

But wouldn't you say that's what you did in your 100 mile as well? Like you also broke it into chunks that your brain could actually process?

Kevin: 22:00

Yeah, as best as possible. And I think this is what anybody does on very long distances. It's what people do on any major problem. You chunk it because you can't actually fathom doing the whole thing. There is no chance on the, oh God, the long run that I did. It was the silliest course because it's basically a point to point. But you started out by doing five miles?

Angie: 22:24

Eight miles? Seven.

Kevin: 22:25

You did seven miles. Yeah, it was like a seven

Angie: 22:26

mile loop up north and then came back.

Kevin: 22:29

It was like three and a half miles north, three and a half miles back, and you literally ran over the starting line. You ran right past the starting line, seven miles after you started, and then 93 miles, sorry, 94 miles later, you finished your quote unquote hundred mile run. Because it was definitely long. Yeah.

Angie: 22:46

Was your watch long?

Kevin: 22:47

Oh yeah, but this is notorious for 100 mile races. Is there 100 ish? It's a ballpark. It's somewhere in the ballpark.

Angie: 22:53

If I was running a 100 mile race, I would be very angry about the ish. Okay? Like 100, I'm done. There are people, plenty of people that get upset about like 3. 15. Miles for a 5K.

Kevin: 23:04

Yeah. I've heard a lot of podcasts of people that have run different ultras and Yeah, some of them have been, they've been run on the same course for so long that people know, yeah, you sign up for this a hundred mile race and it's a loop so there's no messing around. It's clearly, it's a loop and it's 104, like you know what it is? Or I-U-T-M-B is 106 miles because you run around the mountain, so there's no shortening it and being like it's gonna be exactly a hundred. Nope, it's 106. That's what it's,

Angie: 23:28

yeah. So going back to this idea of what level of is voluntary suffering necessary? I would say. To an extent, yes, it is. If you want to improve your performance, if you want to challenge yourself and see what you're made of, when it comes to distance or speed or whatever it is that you want to prove improve performance wise, there is going to be a level of suffering necessary. So it's up to you Which one sounds like more fun question mark which level of suffering is the most fun? Is it the shorter, faster stuff? Is it the longer stuff that you're just going out for a very long time or maybe, just a couple of areas, maybe you're not a hundred miler yet, but you're looking to run your first 10 K or your first half marathon, like this podcast is obviously for runners of all levels and you don't have to, it's not like you have to go decide to run a hundred miles or to run. Your fastest mile ever. There's lots of things in between. So what level of suffering interests you are which level right now in your life the way that it's structured right now Are you willing and able to put yourself through that's going to determine what? What you're capable of in at this point in your life.

Kevin: 24:39

Yeah, really nice. It's both willing and able because I had the timeframe. I worked out how I was going to train for a mile and a marathon in the same year. But then when I started the mile training, I was like, this is awful. And I do not want to continue doing these workouts. So I was able to do it, but. Like you said, fun is a weird word to connect to suffering. But if you're trying to push your physical boundaries, there's going to be some suffering and you're choosing the part that you think is most enjoyable. And that's weird. But I

Angie: 25:10

think that you do have to have some level of fun with it, right? Cause otherwise, why are you doing it? This is a hobby. For all of us, right? This is a hobby that yes, exercise is good for us and yes We want to challenge ourselves and we want to see what we were capable of but life is tough So there should be I would argue some level of fun in the hobbies that you choose and running being one of them

Kevin: 25:32

race But I have the the opposite the pushback to some level of suffering is necessary I think some level of running is necessary if you're chasing performance, but for overall health goals, do you think some level of suffering is actually beneficial?

Angie: 25:47

So this is, I think, my, my mind automatically goes to like my perimenopause group and women in general, but the same, similar things apply to men just a little bit differently. But yes, I think that as we age, as we get older, we, there is going to be a level of discomfort that we have to choose to put ourself in so that. We can maintain strong and healthy bodies as we get older.

Kevin: 26:12

Ooh, interesting choice. So you do still have to maintain some level of suffering to maintain your own physical capabilities,

Angie: 26:18

right? Because you definitely need to be strength training. Like the strength training is a non negotiable for, Humans over 40 years old, if you want to have good muscle health, bone health, like cardiovascular, strength training is absolutely essential for us. And if you are strength training in a way that you're actually trying to improve your muscle strength, you need to be progressively overloading your muscles and overloading your muscles is not an easy thing to do because you're going to get to a point where that feels too heavier. It feels like you're doing too much. And that's.

Kevin: 26:53

Yeah, I feel like I can handle strength reading. I'm not the biggest fan of it. I don't like strength reading the same way that you do. I do it to get the benefits so that I can do other things, but The way that I've structured my strength routine, I'm able to get benefits without going to a place that I would consider suffering.

Angie: 27:10

I think that's a good point because once you get to a certain level of health and of muscle strength, you can live a very long time at maintenance. At a maintenance level. At a maintenance level. And a maintenance level in anything, whether it's running or lifting or any other sport or activity that you're doing, does not require that same level of suffering as it does when you're building up to that level. Because you just have to, you have to do less to maintain, right? Once you get to a certain point, you don't have to do as much to maintain as you did to get there.

Kevin: 27:42

Which I think leads nicely into our third point here is Unnecessary suffering, okay, unnecessary voluntary suffering is often not a wise choice, especially if you're training for performance of doing more than you need to if you're looking at, the workout that you're putting into getting to a certain race performance, a certain physical performance, doing more than is necessary, is not playing well with the risk reward balance.

Angie: 28:13

Yeah. Because running as hard as it is, especially if you're training for something. So I always question people that I see that. it seems that they're making it harder than it needs to be. So why are you going to make it harder than it already is? Or just suffer for the point of suffering? To me, that's pointless. There has to be some other secondary or tertiary gain. If you are going to put in the work and the effort that would actually put you in that level of suffering.

Kevin: 28:45

See I think that this unnecessary suffering, like, When I go off on a long run, this is a difficult task. Okay. So I do everything that I can to make sure that I'm reaping the benefits from the long run. So this involves making sure that I'm fueled and hydrated appropriately. Extra unnecessary suffering is being like, I'm going to go do a 20 mile run, and I'm not going to take any fuel as I do it. Like you're not going to get the benefits of it, so your performance is going to suffer. You're more likely to have, much greater risk of injuries of all sorts of different things. And And what is the point of it? What are you trying to prove out of that? If the goal is to improve fitness, you're not, you're literally choosing the wrong path. Okay. But that's like from a performance perspective, other people are literally doing, I feel like performative suffering of not only am I going to do a long run. But I'm also going to do it shirtless and I have very pale skin. So I'm going to get sunburned after five miles. Like this is just pointless. Like when I go through a long run, I'm taking on everything that I possibly can to make this as comfortable as possible. So I've I've got this like skin lubricant stuff that I put all over my toes so that they feel fine by the end of the run like Unnecessary suffering could go as simple as just taking care of your body When you're going out and doing a hard workout, but also fueling yourself like going out and doing workouts unfueled seems like it's going to be, Oh, I'm going to get I'm more hardcore. I'm going to get a better benefit out of this, but science suggests, no, you're just choosing a harder path and it's not helping you.

Angie: 30:21

Yeah. And I think that, we often have this idea that pushing harder is better, but pushing harder is not always better. And so why would you push yourself harder then? What will benefit you right because I think that there is a certain level of like when if I push myself harder up to A point I'm going to gain benefits, but whether it's physical benefits or mental benefits There's going to be some sort of benefits and hopefully both right. Hopefully you are choosing Suffering voluntary suffering that is benefiting you both physically and mentally if at least one of the two, right? But beyond that if you're just pushing hard just for the sake of pushing hard You But you've already maxed out the physical and mental benefits. I guess you could argue that there's always mental benefits of that but is there

Kevin: 31:09

max out mental benefits,

Angie: 31:10

but I feel like there is a point where you do, where you can mentally break, right? Like where you do go into that.

Kevin: 31:25

Yeah, over a longer term, there are people that we'd suggest that doing the really hard workout and getting yourself through there is going to make yourself tougher for the next really hard workout, but you can't then make that next really hard workout the next day just to show how mentally tough you are because it's not sustainable for year over year.

Angie: 31:45

Yeah, but I also think that it could backfire, right? I think that if you do go into a workout and you just push yourself because just to see like how tough I can get, like you might not look forward to the next few runs, right? Like you could actually do some damage and take away some of your. motivation or desire to put yourself through that level of suffering and through that level of training, which could then lead to a backslide. It can lead to a performance decline because you're not willing to put yourself into that level of suffering.

Kevin: 32:17

Yeah. I think this is connected to the performative suffering of, if you're putting your, all of your runs out on Strava and you're making sure that you're getting appropriate likes off of that thing, and you're putting it onto some other form of social media of, I got in my 10 mile run, I got in my 12 mile run your marathon training or something, and the long runs keep building up and people keep liking as your long runs get longer, you're going to try to get some benefit out of that. You're getting this dopamine hit from people liking, essentially, people are liking you posting about the suffering that you're going through. And If you had a training plan, if you had the magic of being able to know exactly what the mileage was that you needed to optimize your marathon, your half marathon time. Let's say that you could run your fastest half marathon at 50 miles per week. Would you do 60? Would you do 70 just to be able to say, look, I did even more than I had to because it looks good because it looks like more suffering because I'm willing to push myself through it. I don't think that there's a benefit to that. If you've maxed out your physical benefits towards whatever the performance goal is, I think anything beyond that is really just for performance and trying to get, hurrays from the people around you.

Angie: 33:32

Yeah. So I think that's really the question that we need to ask. And, we don't know the answer for you. Are you putting yourself through a certain level of suffering? Are you avoiding suffering? Are you putting yourself through more suffering than is what is necessary? That's not really beneficial to you anymore. Like what level of suffering, of voluntary suffering are you willing to put yourself in and through and how much of that is actually benefiting you?

Kevin: 33:59

Yeah, that's a good recap of all of this, is some suffering is necessary, but some. Not as much as you possibly can right up until the point that you break and then continue to keep pushing until you're broken.

Angie: 34:11

But if you want to achieve a certain goal or achieve a certain level of performance, That this is part of the territory, right? And so if you're not willing to put yourself into that level of suffering, then don't be surprised when you don't get the results that you want, right? Don't be mad at yourself because of it. Just understand where the lack is. Where do you need to work on? What level of suffering? Does that goal require and then ask yourself is that a level that I am willing and able to put myself through? If not, then change the goal, right? Maybe the goal's not the right goal for you and that's totally okay. There's nothing wrong with changing your goals if that doesn't align with, What you want to do and how you want to train, but if that is still the goal, if that goal does mean a lot to you, like Kevin was talking about before, like that goal does have to mean something for you to put yourself through that level of suffering for you to wake up at 5 a. m. and go out on that run and to go out in the Rain when you don't feel like, wouldn't you much rather just stay in your warm house in your sweats instead of going out in the cold rain or in the snow, those of you like we're not there yet, but the snow in the winter is coming, which we are definitely looking forward to here in South Florida. Not the snow, of course, but the winter, because this heat has been, just ridiculous, but that's another level of suffering, right? Going out to run. In the heat and humidity, like I'm, I often ask myself, like, why am I doing this? Because I'm not training for a race right now. So it's like, why am I even doing this? And I remind myself because I want to be a strong and healthy, until the time that I take my last breath. And this is a part of The path that I've chosen, there's lots of ways to get strong and healthy. I don't, you don't have to be a runner, but this is part of the path that I've chosen. And this is the path that I like, right? There's something about running that I love that brings me back to it. And that is a level of discomfort that I'm willing to put myself in because of the greater goals that I have.

Kevin: 36:06

All right, so suffering, as long as that suffering gives you some level of enjoyment and you're actually able to gain some reward and benefit from that suffering, then the suffering is useful and necessary.

Angie: 36:19

There you go. All right, you guys, if you have not yet, please leave us a review if you enjoyed this podcast, head over to Apple podcasts and leave us a review or over to Spotify and share it with a friend. If this was something that you enjoyed that you think that a friend might benefit from as well. And as always, thanks for joining us today. This has been the Real Life Runners podcast, episode number 377. Now get out there and run your life.