365: Training Over 40: Insights and Adaptations for Runners

In episode 365 of the Real Life Runners Podcast, we share personal updates on their training and lives, offering insights that listeners can apply to their own running and overall health. Kevin discusses his recovery journey after surgery and how he gradually reintroduced running, emphasizing the importance of listening to one's body and flexibility in training plans. Angie delves into her research and personal experience with training strategies for women over 40, especially in relation to perimenopause and menopause. The episode emphasizes the significance of enjoying the training process, being adaptable, and maintaining a holistic approach to health and fitness.

04:06 Recovery and Training Post-Surgery

05:55 Balancing Training Plans and Listening to Your Body

12:03 The Importance of Enjoying the Training Process

25:42 Exploring Training for Women Over 40

26:45 The Impact of Hormones on Training

27:58 Challenging Traditional Fitness Advice

28:28 Developing a New Training Protocol

29:45 Balancing High-Intensity and Endurance Training

33:34 The Importance of Enjoyable Training

38:05 Incorporating Strength and HIIT for Women

46:05 Setting Realistic and Enjoyable Goals

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Transcript

Angie: 0:00

This is the Real Life Runners Podcast, episode number 365. Today, Kevin and I are talking a little bit about what's going on in our lives, in our training. It's a little bit of a more personal type of episode, but we'll also take what's going on with us and of course help to extract some of the lessons and things that you can apply to your running and your life. Because what we want you guys to understand when you listen to this episode is that Even though we are coaches and we have a lot of evidence based information that we give out to our clients, we have to also balance some of that with real life, and we don't always follow the advice that we give because sometimes the advice that we give is there to help you optimize your training. And there's times in your life where maybe you don't want to, or need to optimize every single thing that you're doing, and it's better to do it Train in a way that is going to be more enjoyable for you and still allow you to reach towards those goals But also allowed you to incorporate it in a much more real life type of way So if that sounds interesting stay tuned. What's up runners? Welcome back to the podcast today We are getting a little bit on the episode today. We don't have a whole outline and everything that we're following. So today you guys are just going to hear Kevin and I kind of chatting about what's going on with our training, why we're doing what we're doing and, um, kind of what our goals are and what our training looks like right now and why we're doing those things. And, um, hopefully. You can take away a lot of information because we think that, you know, basically what we're doing is very real life. And I think that a lot of you can take away some really great things from this discussion. Um, plus, I know that a lot of you are just curious what's going on with Kevin, uh, as he's getting back into running after surgery. So we wanted to update you there. Um, I get a lot of questions about what I'm training for. So this will answer a lot of those questions and hope, hopefully also help you kind of understand our thought process behind the reasons that we're training this way and, uh, yeah, let's go.

Kevin: 2:30

All right. So let's, let's see how we're doing and kind of dive back into it. I think it's fun that we're doing this on episode 365. There's something about the, uh, being able to knock out an episode a day and just literally listen to us for an entire straight year that says, Hey, let's, let's make this one a little more connected to our daily life. There

Angie: 2:47

we go. I like it. All right. So Kevin, why don't we start with you? Because we've been following your journey for a while here on the podcast and people know if you've been listening to the podcast for a while. For a year or more, you know, that last year, Kevin trained for and completed his first 100 mile race. He trained for a 100 mile race back in 2022,

Kevin: 3:12

right? That's what was

Angie: 3:13

keys. The keys was may of 2022. Yes. Yes. And then Daytona 100 in December of 2023. That's

Kevin: 3:20

right.

Angie: 3:21

Right. So Kevin trained for the Keys 100 and that, that was in May of 2022. Made it to 65 miles in that race and then decided to, uh, not finish the race because of how he was feeling physically.

Kevin: 3:34

I like to reframe that as I completed a hundred kilometers and a little bit. There you go. Rather than DNFs.

Angie: 3:39

I like that. Mm-Hmm. Yes. Kevin completed his first 100 K Uhhuh in May of 2022.

Kevin: 3:44

Finished at our car. I couldn't see the finish line, but we called it the car.

Angie: 3:47

Exactly. Um, and then he finished his first 100 mile in December of 2023. And he did all of this with a hernia and he had this hernia for years and years. And basically it just never got bad enough. And then after that 100 miles, it definitely got bad enough that he needed to have surgery in March. And so since March 18th, when he had his surgery, he's been slowly working his way back into running and into training. In a very smart way, like I will say that, you know, as your wife and as your coach also, um, I'm really proud of the way that you've come back and how you have not really jumped right into training, um, into long distances and things like things like that sooner than you should.

Kevin: 4:32

Yeah, I knew I wanted to, like, I really wanted to get back out there and start running really really quickly. Yeah. Um, I mean, not, not specifically. Speed wise quickly, but I mean within like a few weeks, like as soon as I was cleared to run, I'm like, well, I should be able to now go out here and knock out fives and six miles. And then next week I'll ramp those up a little bit more. And I didn't see back in like February how long it was going to take, but I also didn't put a plan down on paid on paper of like, this is the exact progress I need to make. Like, I really wanted to make sure that it was like, as they come back. If there's a day that I'm really not feeling good, that things are not working well inside my body, or I'm more sore from one day to the next than I need to be, that I'm taking enough recovery. Like, I knew that coming back from this, the recovery days were going to be super, super important. And so, I've not I'm like three months post op at this point, and there's not been a clear set schedule about what was going to happen from one day to the next.

Angie: 5:34

Right, but you just said to me this week that I think it's time for me to go ahead and make that schedule now.

Kevin: 5:39

Yes, I did. I think that may have helped inspire, hey, maybe we should get an update on this. Because it's literally, it's a change in my training. Style is let's let's lay out really the steps that I need to be able to knock off in order to sort of Strive for the next big goal out there

Angie: 5:55

yeah, and I think this is really important for all of us to hear and to understand because I'm really happy that you decided to not put down a plan on paper, um, for this time period. I think that was really intelligent. And you all know, if you've been listening to us, we talk all the time about the importance of training plans, about how helpful and how important it is to have a training plan to know what you've got, you know, what you have to do every single day, every single week. That's the way that you make progress. But in Kevin's case, and obviously this. Also, we also have to keep in mind that he is a running coach, so he not only knows his body very well, but he also understands training very well. So maybe what works for him might not be the best advice for every single person out there. I do think that if you are coming back from an injury or from a surgery, it is helpful to have guidance and it is helpful to have some sort of plan, but keep in mind. Both of us are running coaches and I also, I'm a physical therapist that can help him guide, help guide him through this entire process on a daily basis. Right.

Kevin: 6:59

It's not like I just went blind. It's not like I woke up every morning and was like, I wonder what I'm going to do today and, and just kind of went out and give it a, uh, You know, fly by the seat of my pants. Like I checked in with you on a regular basis about like this is feeling uncomfortable. This is feeling almost painful. What do I do? What kind of exercises would be helpful? What kind of mobility work would be helpful? Because that was one of the biggest things was, uh, drastic loss of strength over like from The time I ran the race in December until surgery, and then I couldn't do any like specific core strength exercises for several weeks post surgery. Like, okay, how do I actually get back into it? And I had scar tissue in places I hadn't been moving correctly. So like, how do I actually, Get mobile again. Like one of the weirdest sensations was running now that I didn't have a hernia and I'm like, well, my form has always been and you can look at at race photos. I was always a symmetric when I ran like, well, is that my normal running style or was there something wrong with it? Was there this hernia issue that my body just naturally compensated and I had this like extra twist to one side? Should I try and change that? Should I try to force it back to the other thing? Is my body naturally going to straighten itself out? All these things were going through my head and at the core of it, I'm like, all right, I need to make sure that I'm strong enough and that my body can move in the appropriate directions because for a little while there, It didn't feel good to do all sorts of normal running motion. So I'm like, so how do I do that? There wasn't a plan, but there was a regular check in with the physical therapist of like alright, what do I do now?

Angie: 8:39

Yeah, so I mean, what would you do or what would you suggest then to someone that doesn't live with a physical therapist that is They're guiding them through the process Like how valuable do you think it would be for someone to have a plan because I do think that it is important to have a plan and to Loosely, right? I think that a loose plan would be helpful in this case. Um, you kind of had that loose plan in your head and then had me to confirm things with or run things by very, very easily and very quickly to get those answers. But I do think that coming back from that An injury, surgery, some sort of extended time off, especially where your body was not able to do what it normally is able to do. I do think that having a plan is important and having someone there to help guide you, whether it's a coach or a physical therapist, there can be super, super valuable for you to get back into things safely and effectively. So you during this time, when you're talking about listening to your body, what would that sometimes look like? Can you kind of give us an idea?

Kevin: 9:43

I mean, that looked like off days that I wasn't planning on. Like I didn't have a plan on paper, but like you just said, I had a plan sort of in my head of, all right, I'm going to run roughly every other day, or I'm going to run these days, you know, I'd look at the, the. Life that we had going on of like, you know, our kids graduating from, from middle school and you know, what the school looked like, what my, my job obligations look like. It was like, well, I don't really think that I'm going to have time to run on this day or this day. I'd like to be able to run at least four days out of the week. Let's, let's fit that in. Like my running schedule was just. Weirder, and I knew that I didn't have to have as much time commitment to the length of my run on a daily basis as it was last, like, November, December, you know, I think one of the statements I like about plans is plans are super, super useful until they get in the way, and I, I don't know. If I had written a plan down on paper, I kind of have that mindset of I wasn't able to do what I said I was going to set forth and I would start feeling bad about it. So then, like, I don't want my recovery from surgery not going quickly and smoothly to now have some sort of mental impact on I'm not a good runner. You know, I can already see, like, I've got other numbers coming out there when I'm trying to run faster, I can look down at my watch and be like, that is not as fast as I used to be able to run. I've got plenty of clear numbers coming at me that say that I'm not in the same place that it used to be. So not being able to hit boxes on a plan was, was something that I was specifically trying to avoid. Now that I, I don't really have uncomfortable pain that shows up that it's not like, Oh yeah, I'm sore because I did this yesterday. Okay. You know, when back in like March, early April, it was like, Oh, I'm sore. And I'm not sure if it's because I did this yesterday or I had surgery. And so I would take an off day. I would be like, all right, I'm just going to, I'm going to rest today. And then we'll get back into it tomorrow. Now, if I'm sore, I'm like, Oh, well, it makes sense that I'm sore because I did speed yesterday. So of course I'm sore. I can go off on an easy run and everything's still going to be fine. So. That's why I think I'm ready to put a plan down because now it's like, okay, if I'm sore, I have a reason for it. I know exactly what it is. There's not this uncertainty of, is it still actually connected to surgery?

Angie: 12:03

Yeah. And I also want to point out here too, part of the reason that you're able to do this is because you have such a good connection with your body. You have been running now for, Ever for a very long time for over 25 years now. And so you understand your body in a way that a lot of people don't necessarily understand theirs. So you can tell the difference between pain and soreness and fatigue. And that's why when you were post surgery and you're like, wait, what is this? Cause that's like a new variable that was introduced there that I think that was really smart to do. And I think that that. You know, is something that can hold a lot of people back or set a lot of people back is pushing through something thinking, Oh, this is only soreness when there might be something else actually wrong.

Kevin: 12:48

Yeah, I mean you pointed I've got all this experience in this connection my body but post surgery and post really like running very well since December trying to go fast again in like mid april when I was like, all right, maybe I'll introduce some moderate effort Maybe I'll introduce

Angie: 13:05

you're talking about May, right?

Kevin: 13:06

Probably May? I don't know. Give me an idea. Yeah, because mid April,

Angie: 13:09

you weren't even like basically running quite then. Okay, so mid

Kevin: 13:12

May?

Angie: 13:13

Probably mid May, like two months after surgery. Makes more sense.

Kevin: 13:16

That does make more sense timeline wise. When I tried to put in moderate running, I'm like, alright, I'll just go to that medium pace. But I hadn't run medium effort since December. And so suddenly I start doing something that, you know, felt cadence wise, it felt like general movement wise that it should match up with what moderate effort was, but the alarm start going off in my head. I'm like 10, 15 seconds in and suddenly my brain is screaming at me like, dude, this is not moderate. You were going way too hard. And I'm like, no, this. I swear this feels moderate. I'm breathing a little bit faster, but I'm not like gasping for air No muscles are like burning on me or anything But my brain was screaming at me that I was going way too fast. So it was this weird disconnect from You know, how in tune with my body I had been for so long.

Angie: 14:07

Yeah, and I think that's really important for people to understand, too, is when you take that extended period off, especially if you had some sort of injury or surgery that you're recovering from, there is that disconnect. That is a very normal thing for people to experience, and a lot of people think that they can just jump right back in. To where they were before, but it's almost like you have to relearn your body again for a short period of time. It doesn't, it doesn't last very long, but it's that initial few weeks, or maybe even up to like a month or so after, um, you just kind of start getting back into things or. In your case, like you had been running easy for a little while and you really started with a run walk. And I want people to know that because oftentimes they look at you and they're like, Oh, Kevin's so fast. He's such a good runner. He started with a run walk and some people out there have it in their head that walking makes you less of a runner. But I don't think any of you would probably say that to Kevin, right? So I want you to know that walking is okay, especially when you're getting back into it after time off. And so Kevin started with this run walk and then. Went into just easy running. What did that for a while before you even started to reintroduce any sort of higher level speeds?

Kevin: 15:15

Yeah. I mean, I was run walking for a long time. Now that you remind me, like I kind of blocked out part of this thing because it wasn't the most exciting running and this is one of the other things of like trying to get back into it, be okay with boredom. Yeah. Like it wasn't exciting. It wasn't like, Oh, What, what new different kind of workout do I get today? Uh, it's going to be the same loop that you did yesterday and it's going to be run for three minutes and then walk for one. And then after I did that and felt good for like a week, week and a half, then I stretched and did something crazy and was like, I'll run for four minutes and walk for one. It was a really boring comeback. And I was like, all right, should I. Run longer, or should I increase the stay at 3 1 and go for another 10 minutes, 15 minutes, or should I go from 3 1 to 4 1 and maintain the same loop? Oh, this is really

Angie: 16:09

good. Talk about that for a little bit there. Like, how do you make that decision, right? Do I increase my intervals, or do I increase my total time?

Kevin: 16:16

So, I wanted to do both, as I'm sure any listener who's ever been in this position has felt. Uh, I'd like to get both faster and run longer simultaneously. Right. Can I, can I do both of them? And in my head, I really wanted to, because I just wanted to get back at least close to my baseline. And run walking was not really my baseline. I wanted to get back to being able to run through my baseline. For my my whole loop as quickly as possible But my loop also was not the loop that I was used to running. And so what I decided was Most of my runs I was going to focus on Changing the interval from being like two minutes running one minute walking and then up to three and then up to four and then up to five. And my run on the weekend, I was going to add an extra few intervals, but keep it at like two one, if everything else was three, one, that one stayed at two one, and when everything moved up to four, one, that one stayed at three, one. So my longer run on the weekend always stayed an interval behind everything else. And well, I don't know if that was the most efficient way to do it. I probably could have. I could have changed my intervals over to all running faster, but I wouldn't have been running as far as I wanted to, or I could have kept stretching out how far I was going, but my intervals would have stayed short. To try and give myself some sanity, I tried to move both of them. I don't think that it was the, the Fastest way to get where I wanted but it gave me the most satisfaction and at that point trying to get back to What seemed like way too far away of like my my running baseline versus where I was Anything that was giving me satisfaction what I was doing was That was the key. That was success in my head.

Angie: 18:01

Yeah, and I think that this is really important for us to point out because we, you guys have probably heard us talk about this on the podcast before. If you are a member of the Academy, I know that you've heard this from us before. It's like pick one. What is your primary focus here? Do you want to work on your speed? Do you want to work on your distance? Do you want to train for a race? Do you want to build strength? Like pick one. Picking one is going to be more effective than trying to do everything at once, unless it drives you crazy, right? Because if it drives you crazy and training is not fun anymore and the joy is being sucked out of it for you, then quite honestly, it's not really worth it. So, I think that it is, it's much better to try to accomplish multiple things at the same time, as long as you accept that that progress is going to take longer for you to actually see come to fruition.

Kevin: 18:53

Yeah. It's funny that we, we cover this right after we knocked off a few podcasts on the efficiency, because this is definitely not the most efficient way to train, but it gave me the most sanity. I'm like, all right. And I did not have a race technically on the horizon. I hadn't signed up for something. So if the timeline was going to take a little bit longer, I was going to enjoy the longer timeline. I was okay with enjoying a longer timeline than going nuts on a shorter timeline, because I I had to get back to that point where it's like, I, I just wanted to go out and enjoy running in January until surgery. I did not like, it was not an enjoyable time. Most things were just super uncomfortable and it, and it wasn't as far as fast as I wanted it to be.

Angie: 19:38

Yeah. And I think that that's the mistake that a lot of people make though, is they set that race goal first and then they're like, okay, I want to be able to run further. Like this race is further than I've ever run before. And also I want to do it faster. I want to increase my. Average pace and be able to run this longer distance at the same time and that's what we're talking about with you You're like I don't have A timeline, right? So we can take a little bit of a slower approach and it's totally fine because you have a very wide timeline. Like you have a goal out in the future, but it's nothing that you had to jump into really fast. And I think that that's really important because a lot of people, when we talk about the mistake of multiple focuses or foci, we

Kevin: 20:20

say, yeah,

Angie: 20:22

um, when we talk about multiple things that you're focusing on, or we can just say that, then it's, it's okay as long as you give yourself the appropriate timeline, as long as you have the appropriate expectations and as long as you're not trying to just cram everything in so that You know, you're trying to optimize for this date. That's three months away,

Kevin: 20:43

right? That's the thing is as soon as you try and cram everything in, because you've already fixed the end date where everything has to be done and fit in by that date, it gets a little dangerous because now you're, you're trying to fit all of this. Training in and you've completely lost the possibility of I need an extra off day. I am not feeling good I didn't feel well, I mean forget just coming back from surgery. What about just life gets in the way What about you're just not feeling good. What about you were out late with friends, you know What about you didn't eat? Well the day before you start to run and it's you've got a real bad upset stomach and you call it after five minutes I'm All of these things can't fit in when you've got this really tight timeline that you're trying to crank up speed and endurance and your mileage, all of it into a, into a small window. If you're trying to do all those things, cause you're like, well, that sounds most enjoyable. Have some leeway with where the finish line is. That's what I never officially signed up for a race. I looked at a race that I was like, it'd be great if I could get to that, but I never actually signed up for it because. If I couldn't get to it, it was also going to be fine because I still liked the training. I still enjoyed the whole aspect of it.

Angie: 21:58

Yeah. And I think that that's really critical here and that's really the key because You just enjoy training. And that's how I live a lot of my life as well. Like I just enjoy being a strong and healthy person. That is my main goal. And people are like, Oh, well, are you going to train for a race? Are you gonna do any of that? Like, I don't love racing. I'm not going to lie. Is it, you know, You know, we've talked about how, how races are great because they push you out of your, your, uh, comfort zone and they challenge you. And that's true. But I do that for myself all the time. You know, I put myself, take myself and put, uh, challenges in front of myself to get out of my comfort zone all the time. So I don't need a race to do that for me. And races are fun. They are great to be a part of. But I think that ultimately I just enjoy the training. I enjoy going out and pushing my body. I like how I feel afterwards. I like being a strong and healthy person because that is my identity. So that's part of why I do what I do. And I'm like, well, I have to go work out and I just want to get strong and I want to be really, really fit. So. I am doing like you multiple things at the same time, right? Like I am working on building strength. I, um, have recently, uh, kind of jumped into a different type of training, which we can talk about in a little bit after we kind of talk about a little bit more about you, but I think that this is important for us to understand is that when you enjoy the training, when you enjoy the process of it, we can extend the timeline a little bit. There's not that rush or that sense of urgency to achieve the goal. If. You're enjoying the process along the way.

Kevin: 23:31

Yeah. And you can still have a goal and you can still have a timeline that is fixed as long as it's a logical timeline, as long as it's long enough. It's when you try to cram that timeline of like, all right, I'm going to sign up for the race and then I'm going to figure out my training. That's when things start getting dangerous of, well, in order to get myself out the door so that I can start training, I'm going to sign up for this marathon. Yeah. And I want to pick the local marathon. So I guess I have 12 weeks to get ready for a marathon.

Angie: 23:58

Yeah,

Kevin: 23:59

that's, that's when there's issues,

Angie: 24:01

right? Exactly. And I think that that is really helpful with what, how you've approached these things too, is you just kind of. You have that goal, but it's like a loose goal. You have a loose grip on it and, and you're just enjoying the process and trying to get there and if you do fantastic, but I think that that's a really important way that we can approach training after time off.

Kevin: 24:22

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's also not just approaching time off. Like you said, that's kind of how you are approaching training is you just enjoy Overall being fit, you're not trying to optimize one specific aspect of your training. You're trying to make sure that you are literally maintaining your overall fitness across all sorts of different aspects.

Angie: 24:40

Yeah, you guys know I'm already training for the 80 year old Olympics or the USA championships.

Kevin: 24:45

That is a timeline.

Angie: 24:47

Yeah

Kevin: 24:48

that is Stretching out a 40

Angie: 24:51

year timeline that is

Kevin: 24:52

stretching out your timeline and then even within that there's an age gap Because the, the, that, uh, that track race is anybody from 80 to 84 is the window that you've got. So it's not even like you have a date in mind. You've got a four year window, five year window to work with. I'm

Angie: 25:08

good. Yeah.

Kevin: 25:09

All right. So besides the 80 year old Olympics, which is obviously clear timeline. And for long time listeners, you've mentioned this many, many times. Everybody really should be planning on seeing this event. Go ahead and get your tickets. Now, what is going on with your training in, in general? Like, what would you say? You just said that there's like a new style of training. Do you want to talk about that at all? Or do you want to talk about more like. What you've been doing for the last few months. Cause I know there's been more of a recent transition.

Angie: 25:37

Yeah, there is more of a recent transition and I can start to talk a little bit about it, but it's still in the works. It's still something that I'm kind of developing right now because I have been doing a lot of research about training. Over the age of 40, specifically for women in perimenopause and then post menopause. And what is the best way for us to train in order for us to get stronger, for us to maintain our speed, maintain our muscle mass, maintain our power? Because if I'm going to be in those 80 year old Olympics, I better maintain some lean muscle mass. I have to be able to still Produce power and also have strong muscles and strong bones. And quite honestly, that's why I train is because I just want to be a strong woman. I want to be a strong person. I want to be super active with my kids and be able to go hiking and kayaking and do all the things when I'm in my sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties. And so I really do take a very long approach to my training. At the same time, I. Have noticed some shifts and some changes in my body and my body composition. So I think I am Starting to enter perimenopause which has really kind of kick started this Research that I've been doing and so I'm learning a lot from a lot of the experts in the field. I'm doing You know digging into some of the research out there, which unfortunately isn't much because what I've learned Women tend to be, uh, an under researched population and, but there is some good stuff coming out now. They're, they're starting to do more and more research on women and specifically women in this age group and in this population. So I just think that, that this is a, a really interesting area with a lot of emerging research that is, you know, Um, let's see, I don't want to say empty, but lacking in a lot of resources and a lot of information for women who want to not only be athletic and healthy and fit, but also want to. Run, right? Because I, a lot of the information that I'm seeing are for just general fitness for women in perimenopause and menopause, which

Kevin: 27:46

is fine. Like that's, that's a great thing. And that's not entirely different from what you want to do with your life. Like you, your big picture goal is you just want to be super, super healthy.

Angie: 27:56

Right. And so that is true. Like I do train in general for fitness, but I also am a runner and I love running, but there's a lot of advice out there that basically says, You shouldn't do steady state cardio because steady state cardio increases your cortisol levels and that's not good for women in perimenopause and it increases systemic inflammation and all these different things, which is true. Right? So, but the advice of just stop running. Is not good advice for us runners. That's

Kevin: 28:24

when I closed the book. I'm like, well, I'm just going to ignore that research.

Angie: 28:27

Exactly. And so I am figuring out a way and a protocol for runners in this phase of life. Like how can we over the age of 40 with all of the things that are happening in our bodies, like, Our hormones, the shifts in our hormones and the results of those hormone shifts are crazy. I never realized just how significant of a role estrogen and progesterone, like these female hormones, play in so many different body systems, including our bone health, our muscle health. Like there's so many things that, um, um, So many body processes that those hormones have an effect on. So it's really trying to figure out a way that's going to help us get stronger, help me get stronger as I get older and, um, also be able to help. Thousands of women to do the same thing.

Kevin: 29:20

See, I think that this is fascinating because there was like a general coaching idea that we've been working with for years. And it's sort of like, all right, but what if that doesn't work? And there's so many coaches out there that are like, no, no, no. This is my coaching protocol. This is how it works. And it works for all my athletes. And if it doesn't work, there's something wrong with the athlete. And you've just taken a step back and been like, all right, what if. What if the workout plan is wrong? Which is such a bold statement to make of like, all right, what if we've been doing it wrong? And we have to come out and basically say what we've been saying is not necessarily been the best advice. Maybe it was because like you just pointed out, the research is so new. And even what is out there is still limited. It's still currently undergoing research and more research needs to be done, but it's such a bold move to be able to say, we might not have been right. going forward.

Angie: 30:16

Yeah. And I think that, you know, you know, I love being right. So this is definitely a bold move for me as well. But this is what science is about. It's taking information and it's saying, okay, like, this is the best knowledge that we have right now. How can we apply it to our lives and ourselves? In our real life, right? Like, because there's one thing when you take science from a lab in a very controlled situation, and there's, it's quite another to take that information and then apply it to real runners with real lives, with real stress and all these other things that we have going on and see how does this actually work when you Apply it in real time.

Kevin: 30:56

I thought everybody, just all of our listeners just had a treadmill set up in their garage with one of those face masks checking their oxygen consumption. So on a weekly basis, we can all do our own personal VO two max test

Angie: 31:06

or, you know, prick your finger and start checking your blood for all those things that are completely not really

Kevin: 31:11

continuous lactate monitors. Everybody should get one immediately.

Angie: 31:14

Definitely not. Okay. Kevin's definitely being sarcastic there, but this is the thing, right? There's all these different fads and trends and things like that. Yeah. But ultimately. How do you feel when you train this way? Right? Are you getting the results that you want to get? Are you feeling the way that you want to feel? How's your energy level? How is, you know, your sleep? How do you feel? On a daily basis. Like, are you feeling stiff and sore and achy all the time? Because that's what I'm hearing from a lot of women. And I'm so, I'm so excited because I have this amazing group of women that I am now taking through this program along with myself. I'm, I'm, you know, testing on myself as well and creating. Programs for women in this phase of life. And I'm just so excited, um, that these amazing women said yes, and that we're testing out all these different plans and protocols. And it's a very, you know, a big part of who we are at real life runners and something that I've always been very passionate about is looking at you as a whole person and a very holistic view of training. So it's not just what you're doing in training. It's also what is going on with your life, how you manage stress, your nutrition, your hydration, like your sleep, all these things that have a huge effect on our hormones because it's not like your hormones are just steady and they just release and like everything goes, um, according to plan, especially as a woman, like men have more steady levels of hormones than women do. And so I think that that's one of the things that makes training. A little bit trickier for women, especially as we get over the age of 40 and enter this new stage of our life. Um, so it's something that we got to figure out. And the answer it's, it's not good enough for me to just say, well, Oh, we'll just train less or just run less or just give up running. It's like, no, if we, if you're someone that loves to run, how can we incorporate that in the best way possible so that you can still feel strong, have lots of energy that you're not just exhausted all the time, um, you know, going to People are having symptoms like hot flashes and night sweats and all these different things, all of those things are hormonally regulated. And so in our training, the way that we train has an effect on all of those different things, right? So how can we train in a way to support our. athletic endeavors, our performance, but also how we feel in our daily life.

Kevin: 33:34

All right. So I have a question. Was there something running training health wise that made you cue into, maybe I need to change the overall layout of my training, or was it just a gradual buildup of I'm not making the same progress. My body's not feeling the same. Like, was it a slow buildup or was there something that actually made you say, maybe I should just generally change my overall training guidelines?

Angie: 34:01

Well, so you know me, I'm very much into research and understanding and, um, trying to keep up to date. Up to date on some of the latest recommendations.

Kevin: 34:11

Yeah, we both enjoy this. Right.

Angie: 34:13

So it's not like, oh, all of a sudden there's a new recommendation. I have to implement that. But it is seeing what is out there and saying, huh, that sounds interesting. And that actually sounds kind of fun. Maybe I'll try it out. Right. So for me, it was, you know, Kind of understanding that some of the information that's coming out right now is how women need to be doing more High intensity interval training and sprint training and that sounds fun to me So I'm like, hmm, let's see and part of it is cuz like My belly, like I'm just noticing some more around the belly and I'm like, okay, like this is interesting, right? If I change at my training, can I kind of offset that or reverse what's happening there with my body composition changes? Um, Because it's not like my eating has changed significantly. So what do I need to, what changes do I need to make in my training or in my nutrition? Like there, cause there are both right. And so it's really just all right. Like, let's, I, I'm not unhappy with my body, but I also am like, I wonder if I can get a little bit stronger or have a little bit of a. more favorable body composition in my eyes.

Kevin: 35:22

So really, again, you, you led with curiosity. Like that, that's essentially always been your main guiding principle to training is you just always lead with curiosity of, all right, I've done this. I mean, even years back, I did this to train for a 5k. And you asked me and you're like, all right, Could I train in a different way for a 5k? What else could I do? What could we change that might get different results? And we changed some things and got different results.

Angie: 35:46

Right. And what, what's going to be fun also, right? Because I'm really enjoying lifting. I've been lifting heavier for a while now. Like, you know, probably a couple of years now. And I've built a lot of muscle. Um, but when you build muscle, you also, your body also tends to store more fat. And, and store more glycogen unless you're doing a cut. And I don't want to do like a build and a cut and like, you know, count my macros, like that's just not interesting to me, right? Like, I don't care that much to do that level of infer, like to do that level of stuff. It's like, okay, how can I kind of eat normally? Maybe shift a couple things. But not feel like I have to track every single calorie, every single thing that's going into my body, but still build muscle and also start to reduce fat a little bit, right? Because whenever you're building, you just, you need more calories, like building muscle, you need more calories and you tend to build muscle and fat when you take in more calories, right? So it's kind of like, all right, is there a way for me to do this? And there's maybe people out there that will say, Tell me no, like you have to track your macros and you have to do this. And okay, that's fine. We know that that works for some people, but is there a way for me to live the life that I want to live and not have to track everything that goes into my mouth, but also get more of the results and more of the body composition that I want.

Kevin: 37:02

So, essentially, you found a way that works, but you want to make sure that it will also work for you in a way that you find enjoyable. Yeah. Because you know that the build and cut, in theory, works, but it works best in a lab. And if you want to live a lifestyle that kind of looks more lab based, that's fine. Well, I don't,

Angie: 37:20

I mean, there's a lot of women that make it work for them in real life. For sure. Yes. Right?

Kevin: 37:25

I feel like it's a much more regimented program. And the more regimented it is, I feel like the more you're going to push back, my rebel wife. Well,

Angie: 37:32

because, oh, I've done that before though too, right? And I've, I've had disordered eating patterns in the past and I don't want to fall back into those where I'm looking at every single thing that I put into my mouth. Like that's, to me is not a healthy way to live for me. For some people, they love it. You know, they love knowing that all of their numbers are on, that they've got this protein and this carb and this fat, and it's all adding up every single day and balancing out perfectly. To me, that just seems like a lot of work. And, um, it's just not the way that I am choosing to, to live my life. So it's interesting though, because for a while. When we looked at strength training, right, there was like this push back that runners had against high intensity interval training or hit training because people say, Oh, well, you're a runner. You get plenty of cardio when you go out and run, which is true. You don't need to be doing hit training with your strength training because people are like, Oh, well, you know, hit training, you can burn the most calories and it's the most effective and blah, blah, blah, blah. And so there was a lot of pushback in it. Like the world of running and some of the people out in social media saying runners should not be doing HIIT training for their strength training. Runners need to lift heavy. So there's a lot, a lot of pushback there. But now some of this research that's coming out for women in perimenopause is saying HIIT training is actually one of the more effective ways for us to be training. But, It's also important for us to lift heavy. So if we have to lift heavy and incorporate high intensity interval training or sprint training, what happens to our runs, right? And this is where I think a lot of people kind of just discard the runs and be like, okay, well. We're just, we just have to get rid of that long, slow distance runs or like those steady state cardio because I'm spending my time lifting heavy and doing HIIT, which for a lot of people, that's fantastic. But if you're running, especially if you want to run a half marathon, a marathon, you want an endurance athlete that's trying to, you You know, improve your performance in specific events. You can't just not run like you have to be able to run. So how do we incorporate all three of those things in the best way possible?

Kevin: 39:41

Yeah. And because there's so many ways to get at the results and it's really just a matter of finding what particular exercise protocol works for you. Anybody who's got the answer of, well, this is the one and only plan. And I think that's why hit got a lot of pushback in the distance running community is when all these hit and, and, uh, the CrossFit gyms came out and they're like, this is the one best possible way to get in shape. All the long distance runners are like, no, not just no, but strong. No, that's a terrible idea. And it wasn't a terrible idea. It was just, it was being pushed so hard that it got really strong push back. Whereas there's nuance to everything. It's gonna work really well. But you just can't claim that it's the one and only thing because there's nothing that's the one and only.

Angie: 40:29

Well, I think the The main problem though, too, is that people don't know how to make the things work together, right? I think that that's really where it comes down to like CrossFit is great. Like that, that helps a lot of people to change their bodies and they find a community and like it's good for a lot of people. Running is fantastic, right? But it's not for everybody, but there's people that just love running. They love the community. They love all the things. But then there's also. Um, Transcribed What we need to do to stay strong and healthy and build lean muscle mass and bone strength and all these things because as runners, we cannot just run anymore. Like the research is very loud and clear. We need to lift weights and we need to lift heavier weights, especially as we get older. And it's funny because We as women have been conditioned to say, Oh no, no, we don't lift the heavy weights. We don't want to get big and bulky, which is a lie, which is a myth. You don't get big and bulky just by not trying, uh, or unless you're specifically trying to get big and bulky, right? Like talk to any bodybuilder or any weightlifter that's trying to put on mass. Like it takes effort to put on mass, especially if you're running. So a lot of women as you get older, it's like, Oh, we should pull back on our training, right? We shouldn't be doing high intensity. We shouldn't be lifting so heavy. We shouldn't be doing sprints and all these things. I saw a statistic that was like, what is, I think it was something like, I should probably look it up before I put it out there, but it was something like 90 or 95 percent of people never sprint again after the age of like 35.

Kevin: 41:57

Right. And the question was, do people lose their speed because they naturally lose their speed as they get older? Because that is true. Like your fast twitch muscles gradually transition to slow twist muscles as you age. But is part of that transition, could you slow some of that transition down by sprinting more, by incorporating some sprint training, by actually accessing your fast twitch muscles? Yeah. Are they going away? Are they transitioning? Because you're never using them. And so they're like, all right, we'll go to slow twitch muscles. Like that's, that's also part of the thing going on here. And saying that there's, you know, the, the, Hit gyms were saying that this is the thing that you have to do and you shouldn't bring running into it and running was like well I love running and I guess that means that I should never do the hit and What you're saying is that there's actually a way that you can incorporate these that the two worlds can come together It's just that social media doesn't like to overlap things and say that you can do both. It has to be a hard fast thing This or that?

Angie: 42:58

Well, cause polarized, right? Like our, our whole society is very polarized right now and polarizing. It's like, you have to choose this side or the other. Like you have to put a name to your eating plan. Like, no, absolutely not. That's not the best way for most people to operate on a daily basis. If it works for you, great. I'm not telling you, you know, what you should or shouldn't be doing, but there are a lot of exercise programs out there that are not the best way for, for Us women to train over the age of 40. And so I'm trying to figure out, okay, what does that look like? It does mean we, I, what I do know thus far is that we do have to push ourselves hard. We need high intensity work. And sometimes that means it's in the gym. Sometimes that's out. Running, it could be on a bike like that. We do need to incorporate high intensity work. We do need to incorporate heavy lifting. And then if you are a runner and or any sort of endurance athlete, you also need the long, slow endurance session. So we've talked a lot on the podcast about 80 20 training. I don't think that that's necessarily. The exact breakdown that we need as we get older, right? And so that's, that's the part where that's my big question mark right now.

Kevin: 44:11

So much of the 80 20 training principle came based off of essentially male athletes who were probably in their late twenties to early thirties at the Oldest and almost exclusively male and elite or sub elite athletes, and they looked at their training and figured out that 80 20 is probably roughly where it came out. But so much exercise science is based off of that population. Yeah, that's not the population that either one of us fit into.

Angie: 44:39

Yeah. And I think that part of it is, You know, yes, we do need to be incorporating more higher intensity and more heavy lifting, but we also need to make sure that we are recovering appropriately from that, right? Because our bodies, those types of training do increase our stress levels, do increase cortisol, do increase levels of inflammation in our body. So we have to make sure that we are balancing that out with the appropriate amount of recovery so that our body can build back stronger. So all of those principles that we've talked about on the podcast, those all still apply. It's just, okay. What does this ratio look like? What is the weekly schedule look like to optimize those times where I am pushing my body harder, but also give you my body enough time to recover. So that might for a lot of people, if you really understand how to run easy, like slow, slow, slow yourself down, then a run could be one of those easy recovery days, right? Like, or it could be a bike or it could be a swim or it could be a walk, right? Like, what does that actually look like? And so that's, um, A very, very long winded answer to kind of what I'm doing with my training right now is I am adjusting my training to find what not only works best for me. But I'm also developing, um, a new program to help women in perimenopause and menopause to figure this out in their lives as well.

Kevin: 45:57

Are you having fun? Oh,

Angie: 45:58

yeah.

Kevin: 45:59

See, and Absolutely. I think that's one of our biggest takeaways off of this is both of us are doing very, very different training right now with very different goals. But, um, At the end of it, both of us are also trying to set up a training plan that we enjoy, and that we think that other people could also enjoy off of these plans. Like, that's one of the biggest things that you need in order for whatever your health goals are, if the path to get there is not enjoyable, it's going to be really difficult to get to that goal. If the path is awful, you're going to eventually stray off the path. No matter how much, how excited you are for the goal, if it's a long path and it's unenjoyable, you're probably not going to take the whole thing.

Angie: 46:35

Yeah. But if you're having fun and you're looking forward to your runs and you accept that identity, like that identity piece is so, so important. Like there are plenty of days that I don't feel like going out to train, but I always fall back on, well, if I want to be a strong person, if I want to be a strong woman, this is what's necessary. I need to, Work out and I need to challenge myself and that doesn't mean you need to push through if you're completely exhausted and wiped out I take plenty of off days if I need to like I we need to know how to listen to our bodies Which I think was another you know topic that we really covered today was that importance of listening to your body honoring your body, allowing appropriate recovery so that you can continue to build up. And if that means that your timeline needs to look a little different, that's okay.

Kevin: 47:22

Yeah. I'm listening to your body, but sometimes being able to tell your brain, I'm still going to go out and run today because sometimes like I am a big weenie when it comes to running in the rain. I just am. It's not my most enjoyable thing. And I went out and I've done a couple of runs in the rain. I've also done runs in our super hot garage on a treadmill. Because it was raining outside, neither are comfortable experiences and both of them end up with my shoes being really, really wet, but it's, it's what I need to do in order to hopefully get near the, the long timeline goal and is it the most exciting run that day? No, but I enjoy the overall process from day to day. And I think that's, that's kind of what we've got.

Angie: 48:00

All right. So what's the loose goal that you're shooting for here?

Kevin: 48:04

There's an ultra in January that I'd like to, Probably, hopefully do.

Angie: 48:08

How long is that?

Kevin: 48:09

That's a hundred.

Angie: 48:10

Okay. Are there shorter options for that one or no?

Kevin: 48:13

There's a much shorter option.

Angie: 48:15

Okay.

Kevin: 48:15

Like it's not like the last race there was a 50 mile option. Yeah. This one has a, it's, it's a hundred or way, way shorter.

Angie: 48:22

What? Like a marathon?

Kevin: 48:23

It's a hundred furlongs.

Angie: 48:24

What's a hundred furlongs?

Kevin: 48:25

miles.

Angie: 48:26

Oh, that is much shorter than a hundred miles. Yes. Yeah. Maybe I'll do that.

Kevin: 48:30

There you go.

Angie: 48:30

There we go. See that's more around my Interest level because I have no interest like every now and then it's kind of funny I'm like hmm Could I run a hundred miles and I was like and then I'm out there on my five mile run and I was like 20 times Yeah, I'm good.

Kevin: 48:45

I think that's that's where I'm at with like the Insanely long in my head the things that are insanely long. I'm like, I have no interest in doing that I think that's where you're at with mine is it seems interesting For someone else to do and that is where the entire length of my uh My interest in that it does that seems neat for somebody

Angie: 49:04

else What how do you what do you feel that that way about

Kevin: 49:06

like the 200 250 mile races? Oh, yeah, really cool for someone else to do.

Angie: 49:11

Yeah, please don't like not not yet. No, I'm not ready for that I don't even think

Kevin: 49:15

ever I don't like the sleep deprivation part of it

Angie: 49:17

Yeah that that is the wild part is like the people that do those races that like start hallucinating and I'll have all sorts of crazy experiences like that's just seems not that fun. Well, this episode was longer than I expected it to be but hopefully you guys found it helpful and can apply Some of what we talked about today to your journey or maybe if you know a friend that could benefit from this information Please feel free to share this and also leave us a review on Apple podcast If you haven't already so that we can help reach new runners. You're leaning over like you want to say something here

Kevin: 49:49

No, no,

Angie: 49:49

we're good. Okay. Um, and if you are interested in my new program, um, it's not open right now. It's still being created, but send me a DM on Instagram and let me know that you're interested in this, um, or that this information applies to you in some way, and I would love to connect with you and kind of hear your experience of, you know, what's been working for you, what's not working for you anymore, because that will help me make the program even better. So, um, definitely connect with me over on Instagram at Real Life Runners and send me a DM and let me know that you guys enjoyed this episode. And as always, thanks for spending this time with us. This has been the Real Life Runners podcast, episode number 365. Now get out there and run your life.