361: Running Both Matters and Doesn't Matter: A Deep Dive

In episode 361 of the Real Life Runners Podcast, we explore the paradox of running's duality—how it both matters greatly and not at all. Kevin shares his 100-mile race experience, highlighting the importance of balancing dedication with perspective.

We discuss the need for flexibility in training and dieting, cautioning against rigidity. Referencing 'The Passion Paradox,' we emphasize the balance between passion and life, fostering a healthier relationship with running.

00:40 The Paradox of Running: Matters and Doesn't Matter

04:28 The Importance of Knowing Your Why

08:46 Training and Identity: Embracing the Runner Within

14:05 Balancing Intensity and Flexibility

28:08 Pushing Through Pain and Finding Importance

31:48 The Duality of Growth and Comfort

33:20 Identity and Core Values in Running

39:15 The Importance of Flipping the Switch

46:44 The Passion Paradox and Life Balance

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Transcript

Kevin: 0:00

Welcome to the Real Life Runners Podcast, episode number 361.

Angie: 0:26

What's up, Runners? Welcome to the show today. You might have noticed a little bit of a different voice on the intro. That was our youngest. She wanted to record our intro for us, so let's make it a family affair this week.

Kevin: 0:37

Excellent. Always fun when it's all hands on deck.

Angie: 0:39

Absolutely. All right. So, Um, today we're talking about this very interesting paradox about how running both matters and doesn't matter at the same time. And it's this weird paradox. Um, you know, duality that I think a lot of us sometimes find ourselves in and maybe don't have the right words for. And so we really wanted to try to break it down today and help explain why it both matters and doesn't matter all at the same time.

Kevin: 1:09

I think the word for it is duality. That's excellent. Excellent synopsis of this episode.

Angie: 1:13

Duality and paradox. I think, right? Like it's really both because success, if we want to be successful at anything, and in this case, running. It requires us to commit to something. And make that something matter like that something needs to matter to you if you want to be successful at it at the same time if it becomes so connected to our identity and if we let the results dictate how we feel about ourselves or how we see ourselves, that's where it becomes problematic, so we have to figure out how to really navigate this duality that exists in running because we don't want to acquire Connect our accomplishments to our identity so much because that can often lead to us pushing too hard or doing too much or riding this emotional rollercoaster of extensive highs and lows of the running journey. Because we all know, know that there are highs and lows when it comes to running or really when it comes to any area of our life, but how connected you are to a certain identity or to certain outcomes will dictate how you experience those.

Kevin: 2:21

Yeah. And I think a huge amount of this is connecting yourself, not just to like the thing in this case running, but to the outcome, connecting yourself really to the outcome of specific, you know, races that you've run the time on a clock or like a specific workout. You go off and have a run and you don't feel good on that run. And suddenly because running is such a key part of you, you're like, Oh, that was a bad run. And that means that running's not going well. So I'm not doing very well. And that, I think, is where it starts getting tricky is where whatever happens during the day now kind of helps dictate how you feel throughout the rest of the day.

Angie: 2:56

Yeah. And we definitely don't want that to be an everyday occurrence. Like, yes, life is going to happen. There's going to be things that affect us, but we have to start to make this separation so that we can really, I mean, become better in all areas of our life, really. So on one hand, it doesn't matter. We don't want you to. You know, put too much weight on all of it. And on the other hand, if we don't put any importance on our running, then we can quickly just kind of let us let ourselves off the hook or abandon training when things get difficult or when you're at that point in a race where it starts to get really hard, which it inevitably will. There's going to be a point where you are going to have to dig in and you are going to have to make this matter to you. Yeah. If you want to be successful and if you want to accomplish things that you've never done before. And one of the things that inspired this episode was really a comment that I saw Kevin make to one of our one on one clients. So talk a little bit about, I mean, we don't have to tell exactly who it is or anything like that, but I think that this was really important because after his race, he put up like a summary of his race in the, in the group, um, in the community and really talked about how that. Comment that you made really stuck with him about how this matters, and so it's really kind of sparked this idea of like, does it matter? Does it not matter? So talk a little bit about that about let's you know, when does it matter? Like, why is it important that it actually matters to us?

Kevin: 4:28

Well, I mean, I think you, you highlight it right there is it often matters and it needs to matter when you're racing because we've all, if you've ever pinned a number to your chest at some point in time during that race, it hit your head of, I don't want to be doing this anymore. I would like to slow down. I would like to just stop at the next water stop, like whatever it is, there's all these voices screaming, this is uncomfortable. Why are you possibly doing this?

Angie: 4:54

I wonder if they need another volunteer at the water stop. I could just. stop and help pass out water at this point,

Kevin: 5:00

passing out water seems a whole lot nicer than trying to maintain this current effort, which is awful and excruciating. And so at that point, it has to matter. It has to matter so much right then, because And almost all the voices in your head are telling you, slow it down. This is not what you should be doing. You're hitting a danger zone. This is bad. This is unhealthy. Like, these are the, the voices. And it's not. Like, you're really not in a dangerous place. You're running. Like, it's gonna be okay. And if it gets really, really dangerous, your body will just shut itself down and save you. Like, you're going to be fine. So, The voices saying you have to slow down because this hurts are just trying to protect you but you don't need them They're really not beneficial. And so that was my suggestion is as long as the clock is running You've got to wrap your head around This is what matters and nothing else really matters right now other than focusing on this specific race which You could say that that may be taking it too much, but I think that that's, if you're trying to squeeze every bit of you into the result of that race, you have to make the race matter while the race is happening.

Angie: 6:08

So, yeah, I think when racing becomes hard, there does have to be that reason to keep pushing yourself. So I think it's really important for us to get clear on that ahead of time because during the race, you are not going to have the mind space or the bandwidth to try to come up. With why this matters to you, right? So I think this is definitely something that we need to come up with ahead of time. So knowing your why and knowing your why specifically for that race also is important because I think that Our why can change over time, right? Maybe you get into running as a way to get healthy. Maybe you get into running originally as a way to lose weight. Maybe you get into running as a way to challenge with yourself. There's lots of reasons that we all get into running and those reasons can shift over time. And I think that one of the biggest mistakes that I see is still holding on to a why that no longer matters to you. And I know that, This is something that I, for sure, have done because I, my reasons for running have definitely shifted throughout the years and when you're trying to, especially if you're in a race situation, if you're trying to push yourself and you're trying to tell yourself that it's important, but your brain's like, yeah, that really doesn't matter to me anymore, that's going to be, it's going to be difficult for you to keep pushing.

Kevin: 7:28

Right, if your brain doesn't think that that's important and you go back to that why and like well I have to keep pushing really hard because it matters and your brain goes. No. No, we've already decided that doesn't matter You need to have something else to go to Sometimes it might be helpful to have a couple of reasons during the race Especially as that race gets really long or the the final mile of a 5k I think it's the longest mile of any race ever. It's it's brutal and And You need to come up with perhaps more than one reason to keep going and to keep pushing, and it doesn't have to be some grand, amazing, life changing thing. It could be That you just decide that not letting that person in the blue shirt get away matters right now. And you could make up a story and a reason why, but it doesn't matter. It just has to get you through the next minute and then you can move to something else. It just has to get you another step forward, another step closer towards the finish line.

Angie: 8:26

Right. So when you are racing, if you have a specific goal for time or distance or some sort of race goal, you have to figure out what it is about that goal. That matters to you. It could be whatever the heck you want it to be. As long as it matters to you, it doesn't have to make sense to you. to anybody else, but it does have to make sense to you. And we kind of jumped right into racing, but this same idea applies when it comes to training, like your training matters, because there's always going to be times where training is going to be boring. Training is going to be difficult. You're not going to feel like getting up at 5 00 AM to go out for that run. So what does it mean for you? And like, this is one area where I think that. Connecting it to your identity really does help. So I don't necessarily like to connect. Well, let's, let's put it this way. I do like to connect it to identity, both with training and with racing, because for me, when you, and really for a lot of the athletes that we work with, this is one of the core concepts that we teach the people in our, you know, our clients inside the academy is that being a runner is part of who you are. And when we. Accept that runner identity and say, this is who I am. Then we say, okay, well, how does a runner act in this situation? What does a runner do? And then we have to act from that place, from that place of this is who I am. And so this is what I do. And so connecting it to racing, like we said, When you're a runner, in my mind, a runner pushes hard in a race, right? So if I say that I'm a runner, that means that I also need to push hard in a race because that's what runners do. And everybody can make their own definition of what a runner is or what a runner does. Like you can make your own, but the same thing for training. When there are plenty of days that I don't feel like getting up or I don't feel like doing the speed workout. It is now may almost June in South Florida and the heat has been turned up to high. So. When the the temperature and the humidity is like staring me down and it does not feel good What is my reason for still going out the door and by identifying myself as a runner? I tell myself Well, this is what runners do like I have to run if I want to call myself a runner and I consider myself a runner So this is part of it, you know On the days that it's hot or that it's humid or that it's raining or that I just don't feel like going, I'm going to do it anyway, because this is a part of who I am and this is who I want to be. This is who I'm choosing to be. It's not that I have to do this thing. It's that I get to do this, this thing that I get to go out for a run because I'm choosing to be that kind of person.

Kevin: 11:05

Yeah. You kind of, I mean, you point out that you could. You can give this runner in your head all sorts of different characteristics of things that a runner do It goes back to you know, like finding your reason for doing it Create all the different aspects of what a runner is that you fully believe this is what a runner is. Don't give it different attributes because you think that they should be on there if you disagree with it, because if you say I'm a runner and these are all the attributes of a runner, you're going to start working to align yourself with all of those things. So if a runner. does the mobility work in the strength training, then you're much, much more likely to say, well, I'm a runner, so I need to do the mobility work in the strength training. If you're like, ah, you know, a real runner just gets out there and runs all the time, then you're much more likely to push off the mobility and the strength and whatever the other aspects are that you don't want to do. Line up all the things that. are truly important to being successful runner and then you're just going to kind of fall in line with those things. That's, that's how I've helped really come around to hitting, making sure that I'm more consistent with the strength and the mobility because otherwise I'll let them slip. But I'm like, it's not just to be a runner. It's to be a runner for year upon year, to be a successful runner, to be a runner that helps try to push their own limits. You can't just go out and run. Like, that type of runner really does all the things. They are, they have an all encompassing Sort of mindset that all these different things that I do in my life all sort of connect to the runner identity.

Angie: 12:39

Right. And if you look at elite runners, they all do all of those things. And, and really we could, you could argue that you're not an elite runner. I'm not a professional, but shouldn't we look to the elites and to the professionals as a model in some ways as to how we should be training as well. Like. We're not going to have the same volume as elite professional runners. We're not going to have the same paces or anything like that, but kind of looking at the way that they approach their training as a whole is a really helpful thing to do because professional runners don't just go out and run. They run. They make sure that they're getting enough sleep and recovery. They fuel their bodies really well with good nutrition. They make sure that they're getting in strength and mobility work. They do soft tissue work to make sure that they're not getting, um, having those aches and pains turn into injuries. There's a lot of ways that they take care of themselves to allow them to do the thing that they love or the thing that they're passionate about. Getting paid to do in this case,

Kevin: 13:35

hopefully both

Angie: 13:36

right? Yeah, absolutely. So it is helpful, I think, to look at elites as an example of what, A runner would be, but take out the numbers when it comes to that, because I think that, you know, our brains oftentimes love numbers and they say, well, I'm not like that person because they're much faster than me or they run much longer than me. But if you take away the numbers and just kind of look at what they're doing, that's a really good way for us to start to establish what that runner persona would look like for us.

Kevin: 14:05

Right, but then, that's where it also starts to sometimes get into that dangerous move of connecting too much of identity to yourself. Because if you're like, well, if I want to be a runner that really makes running important and a key part of my identity, then I have to do all these things and it becomes really, my whole lifestyle is built around running. Which can then create an issue if You get sick, you get injured, something else comes up in your real life that you're like, well, but I'm a runner. So I have to ignore these things and continue to get in the miles and get in the mobility and the strength work. And I'll just ignore these other aspects of my life. That's not the world that we live in. And honestly, it's not the world that most professional runners even live in. Like a lot of them are, have real existences. Many of them have real jobs that they're also trying to deal with and navigate. So. How do you try and blend both of these things? And this is the combination of making sure that it matters, but there are also other aspects to your existence,

Angie: 15:06

right? So it. Also doesn't matter, right? And this is the, the weird duality that we're talking about, because if you connect your identity so strongly with running and something happens to your running, like if, if you only identify as a runner, which I'm guessing most of you that listen to this podcast, don't think of yourselves only as runners. I think a lot of you listening to this podcast probably don't even consider yourself runners or think of yourself in that way. And if that's you. If you don't think of yourself as a quote unquote runner, if you're someone that says, well, I run, but I'm not really a runner. I'm not a good runner. I'm a slow runner. If you're putting some sort of qualifier on it, I would really invite you to take that away and to really start to think about some of the things that we just said in the, in the video. It matters category, right? Like it matters that you call yourself a runner. It matters that you do these things if you want to see success. And a big part of that is accepting the identity of a runner. Because if you run, regardless of your speed, regardless of your distance, you can call yourself a runner. It's simply a choice that you get to make. And when you make that choice, when you take on that identity, You start approaching your running differently, and that doesn't mean that it has to be this super serious thing like it's not for me for me. Running is something that I do, and I also call myself a runner, but I don't. I'm not so serious about it that I'm signing up for races all the time, and I'm really trying to push myself to my own Ultimate limits at all times. Like that's not where I am right now in my running. And that's totally okay. And there are other people out there that are trying to push themselves to their limits and that's totally okay too. Like running can mean different things for you than it does for anybody else. And it can also mean a different thing for you, depending on what phase of your life you're in. Like you're allowed to change. What running means to you, what you're trying to accomplish through your running, like there's a lot of wiggle room here, so it both matters. And also doesn't matter. And like, that's the part we want to get into now is when it doesn't matter. And when it's a good idea to start to let go of some of that. seriousness, I guess, and intensity that we place around our running.

Kevin: 17:27

Yeah, that, that disconnecting from the intensity is a good way of looking at it because sometimes we can be holding so tight to this runner identity that we don't allow any sort of flexibility based off of other things in the world. Maybe we get sick, maybe it's just, it's. ridiculous weather outside, maybe we're on vacation and it would just be really nice to spend some time with our family. But instead we're like, no, no, no, no. I've got this strict schedule that I have to follow because that's what quote unquote real runners do. It's like, well, you're allowed to have some flexibility in here. You can take a step back when you need to. You can take a step back when you want to, because that's one of the other things is, you know, Even serious, very intense training athletes still take time back. Like they have to take some time off. They have to be able to pull back from the intensity because if you're just gritting your teeth and going a hundred percent super intense every day, that's not going to last very long. And I think that we have a lot of people listening to this podcast that don't plan on. running super intense for the next two years and then calling it quits. I think we've got a lot of people listening that plan on running for year upon year upon decade. And if you hold too tight to this really high intense locked in vision of, of a runner, that's going a hundred percent every day, you're going to push too hard and you're never going to give yourself that break that you need from time to time.

Angie: 18:51

Yeah. And it's really going to affect affect your life in other areas, too. And I think that that's one of the reasons that we really like to teach the concept of seasons and training cycles, because if you are seriously training for a race all year long, that gets to be a lot, not just with your running and your physical recovery and all of that, like your physical ability, but But also with your social life, with your family life, with your emotional life. And one of the things that comes to mind here for me personally is when we have really strict eating rules. So I attribute like, this is kind of the example I'm using. So if you are someone that is so. Strict with your training plan that you can't move a day around you can't skip a day Otherwise, you'll feel like a failure or you'll have like immense amount of guilt like this is something that's really important for you to listen to and to hear because I Used to be that way when it came to eating and I never had a quote unquote eating disorder I would say like I was never anorexic or bulimic But I would say that I went through a period of disordered eating where I? Well, several periods of disordered eating in my life, um, where I was so concerned about eating healthy and like I was basically obsessed with eating healthy that I wouldn't eat other things. And it got to the point where Even when my mom would invite us over for family dinner, I was looking at the box of like pasta or whatever that she was making for dinner and checking the ingredients and would or would not eat that if there were artificial flavors or preservatives or those kinds of things. And some of you listening might be like, well, good for you. Like, that's a good thing. But I was really finding that it was, Separating me in a lot of ways and negatively affecting my relationships, right? Like, I mean, imagine inviting someone over for dinner and they come over and they're like nitpicking everything that you're making for them and asking to see the ingredients and making sure that the ingredients are organic or, you know, like that, that was not a cool thing that I was, that I was in right there. But it was because I was adhering so strictly to these rules that I had. Established as important for my eating of this is the way to eat healthy. It needs to be organic. It needs to be natural. It needs to be minimally processed. There can never there cannot be more than five ingredients in this item or I'm not going to eat it and that just gets to the point where it's disordered and I think that a lot of us can get that way with our training to yes, it is important and it matters that you follow a training plan if you want to have success. And if you want to get the results that you want and at the same time, it also doesn't matter if you miss a day, right? So this is where it's, you know, It matters and also doesn't matter like it matters that I'm eating healthy most of this most of the time, but it also doesn't matter if I go enjoy a meal that has some things that I don't normally eat if I'm with my family or having fun or just because I want to.

Kevin: 21:54

Yeah, it gives you that, that just peace of mind when things are not going exactly according to the plan you have laid out in front of you. If you have to always follow the exact plan, there's going to be just a lot of anxiety around various events like, Oh, well, this thing unexpectedly hit the calendar. How am I supposed to be able to get my workout in now leads to just an anxiety inducing thing instead of. Even just putting the possibility of, well, I might have to skip that day. Maybe you can rearrange things and you can make it work at a different time of the day. You could rearrange the week and you can fit things in, but just opening the possibility that rearranging things might involve an extra off day. Just remove some of the anxiety from this. Because at the end of the day, your, your big picture goal is probably somehow related to, I want to be a healthy person and super high levels of anxiety all the time, because you want to try and optimize speed is not balancing with, I want to be an overall healthy person.

Angie: 22:53

I'm so glad you brought that up because the same thing goes with the eating example that I just gave. The amount of stress that I had around my eating and not making sure I wasn't eating the wrong things, that increased level of stress Made my eating less healthy and this is like the crazy thing about really the mental side of Everything that we do of the way that we think about our writing the way that we think about our food the way that we Think about ourselves Because our brain controls hormone releases in our body. And some of those hormones are stress hormones. Stress hormones have an effect on how our body digests things, on how we process food. And so if I'm releasing all of these stress hormones around mealtime, because I'm stressed about what I'm eating, if the ingredients are good enough, or if, you know, I'm eating the right macro count, or whatever it might be, I'm literally working against my body. I'm literally self, self sabotaging myself and not allowing my body to process the food that I'm giving it in the right way. Ideal way, because there's all these stress hormones around it and stress hormones lead to decreased digestion, like stress hormones activate our sympathetic nervous system, which is our fight or flight and our parasympathetic nervous system. The others. System is responsible for rest and digest. So if I'm constantly activating my sympathetic nervous system and constantly stressing about when am I going to get my workouts and what kind of a food am I going to be eating? Like then I'm not even allowing my body to recover and digest and actually reap the benefits of those harder workouts.

Kevin: 24:28

The combination of trying to fuel while running is is right in there because now I'm running ridiculous distances and trying to take in fuel as I'm doing it. But if you freak out about whatever fuel is coming in or I need to go as fast as possible through this, like aid station, I need to take in enough calories. Where's, where's Angie. I need to make sure that I've got my, my water bottle refilled. Suddenly you're adding a huge amount of stress. If you stress out during a race and you're trying to fuel it, half marathon, marathon, anything that you're trying to fuel during the race and you're super stressed about the race experience, that is a setup for a GI issue because you're You're taking in the calories, but your body can't process them because you're too busy freaking out about what's going on around you.

Angie: 25:13

And this is a really good, um, kind of nod to trusting the process as well. Right. Of like when you are in a race situation, it is important to have it matter, but not to have it matter so much. Again that you're so stressed about it because that is probably going to sabotage you like there is a part where when it is Uncomfortable it does need to matter But you also have to relax and allow it to not matter because you have to trust the process that I've done Everything that I've possibly Been able to do to prepare for this and this is where your brain is going to want to be like, no, you didn't, you missed that run a couple of weeks ago and you didn't do this and you didn't do that. And it's going to be mean to you and try to tell you all the ways that you're not prepared. But regardless of what you quote unquote should or should not have done, you showed up at the at the starting line prepared. In one way or another, you could argue that you were not as well prepared. You were underprepared or overprepared, but not really overprepared, but you could argue that you were underprepared, but you are your level of preparedness when you get there. And so part of you has to just trust the process and say, okay, I'm going to keep pushing myself here, but also not stress about it. And so that's kind of a funny, like. Subduality of this whole thing too is like it matters and I want to be able to push myself But I also don't need to be worried and anxious and stressed about it

Kevin: 26:38

Well, this is the like the holding the egg analogy is you have to hold an egg tight enough that you don't drop it and Crack the egg all over the place But if you squeeze the egg too tight, you've just gone ahead and cracked the egg like you It's, this thing is important, so I have to protect it, but I can't hold onto it too tight, otherwise I don't protect it, I just destroy the whole thing in the first place. So, it really is this tough balance, and in the later miles of a race, in the, shoot, in the 5k, in the early miles of a race, It's super painful and your brain is very quickly giving you, I don't want to be doing this anymore. You should slow down. You should quit. You should stop doing this. And you need to come up with some reasons why at that point it matters. But then as I told our client, once you cross the finish line, It doesn't really matter anymore because it's just a race. It's just this little running race where some people in your community all got together, pinned a number on their front and then ran around in a big loop. Like that's really We're just

Angie: 27:37

out here running around. Like, think about it. Like running is pretty ridiculous. Like even racing, it's pretty ridiculous. We're just paying people and putting numbers on our chest to run around.

Kevin: 27:47

Yeah, I mean there was a group of people that literally just ran around our neighborhood this morning Like they paid a bunch of money ran around our neighborhood and then got an apple pie at the end Like that's what happened this morning You know, I I paid a whole bunch of money and then ran down the side of the state of Florida for a while that was weird and kind of silly But you got a

Angie: 28:08

belt buckle.

Kevin: 28:08

I got an amazing belt buckle, but here's the thing at mile, I don't know, somewhere around 60 ish, I looked at you and I'm like, I don't know if I can move much faster, this is going to take a long time. And you looked at me and you were just like, it's okay. And that was giving me permission to allow it to matter. Because at that point I was right on the cusp of how important is this? Because, oh my word, this hurts a lot and it's going to take a long time. And I got all my family in the car here. So is it, is it important enough? And you gave me permission to allow it to be important enough right then. They got me to the finish line.

Angie: 28:47

Yeah. And part of that also was your brain. Giving you reasons why it didn't matter and why it was better for you to put us ahead of yourself in that moment Because that's so much who you are like you are just a very self sacrificing person in general and you put Our family first above yourself a lot of times And I think that that's kind of where your brain was going your brain was going to I don't want to inconvenience my family anymore Because this is going to take longer than I thought it was and and somewhere in your brain I'm guessing we I don't think we ever really had this conversation but i'm guessing somewhere in your brain you Had this idea of like it should take this amount of hours and it's okay for me to inconvenience my family For this amount of hours, but all of a sudden You You were at a point where it was going to take more time than that. And your brain was like, this is not okay. Like I already reached that limit.

Kevin: 29:41

Yeah. Like I had gone through this in training for it of trying to make sure that I had. Fully, fully on board. All the family was on board with this taking as long as it needed to take. And that could be conceivably like 24 hours. Like we could still be going tomorrow morning. We might watch the sun rise without having gone to bed. And, and that's tough because the other part of my brain was like, you're going to be done by midnight. Everybody just has to be there and support you until midnight. And I started doing the math and. Feeling my my gi system and and those two didn't add up to before midnight And that's where it was like, I don't know and that was the weird part is it was I don't know six seven o'clock Like the sun had gone down But it wasn't that late It's not like it was 10 30 and i'm like this is going to take a lot longer like it was Hours and hours from the finish line and I just done the math and realized this is going to take Four hours Several more hours than I, than I was hoping for it to take. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I, I really was kind of slightly looking for a way out, but my brain was like, it's not as important as you want it to be. And when you're going that far, when you're pushing yourself that hard, it has to be super important. But then once I crossed the line, the time was a hundred percent. I. Like the, our kids did not care what the number was on the clock and no one really does. This is what I told our client before he got into the race. I said, once you cross the finish line, the clock doesn't make you a good or a bad person. You're just a good person. You're going to go home and be dad. That's who you're going to be regardless of if it takes you 30, 40 or 60 minutes to run your time. Um, it's just, it's just a race that you did.

Angie: 31:25

Yeah, and I think that really is the challenge is both holding the importance and the irrelevance at the same time. And it's a very weird duality to hold sometimes. It's like this has to be important to you because that's what's going to allow you to continue to push yourself. And as soon as that's over, It's also not important at all. And that's like a very weird thing. And it's, it's hard for a lot of people to make that those kinds of separations, because oftentimes if we cross the line or let's just say, it's not even a race, like you're just going out on a run and it feels harder than you want it to, we can make our brain wants to make all sorts of things mean bad things about ourselves, right? Like our brains are wired for negativity. If you didn't know that it's true. It's like, you can look it up. It's called the negativity bias. Our brains are wired for negativity. Our brains are wired to keep us safe. So when we're going out and we're running and we're weightlifting and we're doing all of these things to physically challenge our bodies to get stronger and to build, you know, the strength that we want. Our bodies are trying to keep us right where we are. Our bodies do not like growing, which is also a weird duality because as humans, we're wired for growth, but also our brains are wired for comfort and those two things do not go together.

Kevin: 32:41

Yeah, we need to be able to move and grow because that's how we live the best. But our brain also wants to be as safe as possible. And so, yeah. If you're moving and growing kind of makes your brain think this is an unsafe environment, it wants to shut it down. It wants to grow, but in the safest possible way that you could possibly set this up. Can I, can I grow well living in like a, you know, padded box? That would be ideal for me.

Angie: 33:06

Yeah. So when we go back to this challenge of trying to hold both the importance and the inru Irrelevance at the same time. It's really choosing again, going back to identity of who you want to be, choosing who you are, choosing your core values. And this is part of what I think you were faced with during your hundred mile at that point in time, because part of your identity is. I don't know if, if you consciously identify with this, but not a, well, kind of a people pleaser, right? Like you are, you like to go with the flow. You like to make sure that everyone else is happy and you are someone that will put your needs behind. the needs of your family, or the needs of the people that mean a lot to you. Would you agree?

Kevin: 33:51

That's true.

Angie: 33:51

Is that a way that you identify?

Kevin: 33:53

Yes, that's true. And so like as I'm watching the girls start falling asleep and now you have to drive down the road by yourself, solo and like pitch black, I'm like, I don't know if that's the safest place for me to be putting Angie. Like that's, that's not a good idea. Is that a wise choice for me to still be making right here if she's now trying to continue, I mean, you had to be exhausted at that point also, we got up pre dawn, so you were super tired, and was that the best place for me to be putting you? You know, that's going through my head as I'm trying to run down the side of the road.

Angie: 34:22

Right, and so, that situation that you found yourself in was not aligning with, I'm here to put others first. Right. Right. And so you were out of alignment with part of your identity.

Kevin: 34:35

And that's, that's the issue is we all have different aspects of, of, of our identity. Like there's not just one part. And sometimes there are conflicting things. I mean, that's literally where I found myself is how am I the best caregiver? And at the same time, best runner, because they were, they were butting heads at that point. And it was weird and awkward. And you were like, it's going to be okay.

Angie: 34:59

Right. Because you are someone that. You will choose caregiver, father, husband over runner in most areas or most times of the life. But at that point in time, you had to put runner above father and husband.

Kevin: 35:15

Yes. Yeah, I had to. And

Angie: 35:17

that was like a weird thing for you to do. Right.

Kevin: 35:19

Right. Which is why it was super helpful when you helped me make that decision because you knew it was the decision that had to be made. You knew that I had really already made that decision.

Angie: 35:28

And I also know we were, we were fine.

Kevin: 35:29

Yes.

Angie: 35:30

Right. Like, cause in your mind you were making it mean this big thing. Like if something had happened to one of us, to, uh, you know, our girls and like, it was not, Like you couldn't continue. You would have dropped it and been dad like that, but we were fine. Like we were totally fine. Was I a little bit tired? Sure. But. We were fine, you know, it was not unsafe for me to be doing this That's what your brain wanted to tell you But that was a lie that your brain was telling you

Kevin: 35:58

right because I also only get to see you like Every once in a while on the run and so I'm like, ah, is she doing? Okay, when do I see them again? So like it's like Which is not helping me run, as I'm trying to drag my body down the side of the road, of, you only have so much mental capacity, and to be the best runner, you need a lot of it focused on you. So, as soon as, because honestly, like, you gave me, I think, I'm a, I feel like I have a memory that you gave me like a gross smelly hug because I was disgusting at that point and told me it's going to be okay and that was enough that I could take my brain off of you and the girls and, you know, we don't all have that length of a race, but knowing that you have the support from the people around you to take what is sometimes feels a little bit of a selfish identity to be the, just the runner for this time period. Is super helpful to be successful within, within a racing context and sometimes within a training context.

Angie: 36:56

Yeah. But it is also funny, right? Of you're saying to be just the runner. And also sometimes when you're in that race, it is important for you to go back to that deeper why of, you know, I'm a father and I'm setting a good example for my kids, right? Like why, why am I doing this? What, why am I signing up and doing this ridiculous race? Why am I running a marathon? Why am I trying to hit a PR it's because I'm. I'm trying to be a healthy example for my kids because father, my identity of father, that's what part of that definition is, is I'm saying a good example for my kids. I'm living out a healthy lifestyle. I'm active. I'm living an example of what I want them to be in a lot of ways, right? So it's like, you're both healthy. Trying to hold on to just the runner and also the father, right? and it's like you're you're kind of juggling these different identities and these core values and Depending on what kind of situation that you're faced with

Kevin: 37:54

Yeah, and a lot of that is, can I give a good example? Like the, even within, can I set a good example as a, as a father? There's multiple good examples that you can set. Can I set a good example as a healthy individual? Okay. Then going out and running and racing. I think I feel like there's good, healthy aspect to that, but then can I also set a good example of someone who is trying to pursue goals to pursue big challenges? That's not necessarily the same aspect because. At, you know, mile 80 or whatever, where my foot did was having serious issues. Maybe the healthiest choice would have been to call it quits, but then you're trying to balance that with, well, what's, what is the importance of setting up this huge challenge in front of me and trying to strive to accomplish this goal that I've worked so hard, I can, they can see that putting a big goal out there. Even, even if you don't achieve it, but putting a big goal out there and really going all in and trying to give that goal, everything that you have, they can see the importance of that. And, you know, we can argue just right there that the race itself doesn't matter. Like it really doesn't matter what the race is. It doesn't matter what the event is, but putting yourself out there in a place where it is a challenge and then striving to be as best as you can during that challenge. I think that's a good lesson to teach also.

Angie: 39:15

Yeah, and I think this really ultimately comes down to this idea of being able to flip the switch and being able to decide at any given moment, which part of your identity or which of your core values. You're going to lean into the most based on the outcome that you want to achieve because when you're striving for any goal You do need to be fully invested But when you move to a different part of your identity, you have to be able to flip that switch You have to be able to flip that switch between super competitive runner and dad like, you know And this is one of you know, one of the classic examples of this would be like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. There's a lot of people that have studied these two men and both of them are arguably the two of the best, two of the best players. Like, I would argue Michael Jordan is definitely the best player of all time. But there are people that would say Kobe Bryant is up there. And there's obviously others on that list. But these are two of the best players. At least the top five or top 10 players of all time, but people that knew Michael Jordan and watching the way that Michael Jordan lived his life, people would talk about how he had a hard time flipping that switch off. He was super competitive with everything that he did. It doesn't matter if it's a board game. That's probably the reason that he had a gambling issue, or I don't know if he still does. Um, but Kobe Bryant, on the other hand. Could flip that switch on the court. He was ruthless. He was relentless. He was, you know, all or nothing, but at home he was still able to be dad. He was able to kind of turn off that competitive nature that he showed on the court.

Kevin: 40:52

Well, I mean, he flipped this. He, he dubbed this, this was his Mamba mentality. And when he hit the court, he was literally a different person so that Kobe Bryant didn't go out there and play all these basketball games. That was Mamba that went out and played the games. Whereas Michael Jordan didn't have this. I mean, he, Kobe literally set it up so that this duality had a name. Like this was a different character that he was when he played the basketball games so that he could be Kobe Bryant in most of his life, Jordan was Jordan. All the time. Like that's who he was. He's out on the golf course and he had to be the best person on the golf course here. They're playing cards. He's playing pickup basketball with his kids like it didn't matter what it was. He had to win at all costs because winning was the most important thing and it led him to be the best basketball player out there. But did it cause issues in other aspects? Probably. I mean, I think that you could say that this win at all cost mentality and not being able to flip that off was a serious issue that came up for him. Whereas Kobe was able to flip it, the games could end and win or lose, and it mattered to him whether it won or lost. But if his daughter came up to him at the end of a game that he didn't win, he could flip it and be dad and not have to be destroyed by what just happened in the basketball game.

Angie: 42:10

Right. And, and please understand, we don't know these men personally. So this is kind of, wouldn't that

Kevin: 42:15

be cool. We did,

Angie: 42:16

you know, this is us based on watching a lot of documentaries and reading articles and kind of what, um, what we've learned about these men. These men from other people who have studied them, but it kind of asks the question leads to the question of, you know, can you push yourself in training while still allowing yourself space for other aspects of your life? You know, can you take a break from your training without judging yourself negatively, with without, um, thinking that you're going to lose all of your fitness and go down, down the drain and be able to hold space for both aspects of your life. And I think that that's really. where it comes down to. It both matters and doesn't matter at the same time. Yes, it matters. I want to be a healthy and strong person. And in order to do that, I, I choose to run and lift weights and do exercises. Most days of the week, go on walks, eat healthy. That's what those are some of the things that I have defined. As a healthy and strong that a healthy and strong person would do and also it's totally okay if I have ice cream with my kids or if I go out and Eat something that is not on my normal list. Not that I have a list. I don't have a list I used to have a list.

Kevin: 43:30

I definitely

Angie: 43:31

used to have a list of what was healthy and what was not healthy You know, but there are times that it's totally okay. And sometimes I'm going to have some weeks. We had a, a week of celebration when we had family in town. We celebrate our oldest daughter's graduation. You're going to eat out more than you normally do. There were a lot of

Kevin: 43:50

meals you did not control,

Angie: 43:51

right? You know, and, and that's. It's going to be okay, you know, and that was something years ago when I was in that, that phase of, of disordered eating that would have really thrown me for a huge loop. Like I would have had so much stress about that and I'm, I'm so glad I'm not there anymore. And I really hope that, you know, I don't know if somebody listening to this podcast needed to hear that, um, because it is not an easy thing, um, you know, when, especially when you're. When you think you have the right intentions, you know, like, I'm just trying to be healthy. I'm trying to get stronger. I'm trying to do these things. And it really leads to other negative consequences, um, in other areas.

Kevin: 44:31

Yeah. I mean, that was like a whole mindset shift on the whole, like flipping the switch, maybe in like the couple of days before a race, it really, really matters. But then afterwards you can make sure that you flip the switch and it's like, all right, I can, I can have some celebration. I can have some time. You can see the times where. The exact fuel you're putting into your body might have a little bit more of an impact than on other days. And you can, you can recognize that. We like to go play pickleball with the girls. There's a difference between the competitive personality that I bring when I got a number pinned on my chest and I'm in the middle of a race versus the Playing pickleball with the kids. It would not be a fun experience for anybody involved. If I brought the same level of competition to the family pickleball court, like it just, no one would enjoy that experience at all. And sometimes the competitive nature seeps in a little bit too much and I can see how poorly it's going and I need to go far the other direction. I have to kind of highlight more of the silly aspect of it and realize that it's It doesn't matter at all in this context.

Angie: 45:34

Yeah, and sometimes that's really hard, you know, because I mean, you and I are both very competitive people by nature and it drives me crazy when I think that, like, I remember, you know, when one day we were out playing pickleball and I was like, Is anybody even trying? Like, it was driving me crazy that people just weren't putting in the, uh, quote, unquote, appropriate amount of effort into this situation. But

Kevin: 45:56

the appropriate amount relative to what you were expecting on that particular day.

Angie: 46:00

Right. And that's definitely something that I think I've, uh, Learned and I'm still learning. I'm definitely not perfect at this by any means, because the girls will often tell me that I'm taking things too seriously. Um, but it's something that I've definitely gotten better at throughout the years and as with being more aware and more conscious of it,

Kevin: 46:20

yeah, I think awareness is a big thing because if you're not aware of it, you don't even realize that there is a switch that you could flip off, just recognizing it and saying, Oh, I don't know. I, I need to flip the switch in this particular environment just brings the awareness again, which is usually a good thing. It's just having a little self awareness.

Angie: 46:39

Yeah. So all that to say, understand that it matters and it doesn't matter. And I hope that this episode was able to, to, to, uh, Shine some light on that duality and help you kind of navigate this, um, very complicated topic. Kevin and I were, when we were talking about this episode, we're like, does this make sense? Cause this is like a huge topic and like a really good book, uh, reference for this. Topic. If you want to kind of dig a little bit deeper into it, it's called the passion paradox. Um, that's Magnus and Stuhlberg, right? That's they did that both together. Um, so Steve Magnus and Brad Stuhlberg wrote that one. Um, it's a great book and it really helps to kind of. Lay it all out of how there are sometimes in our life that we're things are not balanced. Like when you are striving for a really big goal, you can't have a perfect balance in your life. There's going to be there's that like dark side of passion and of drive and of like big goals. Um, so it's, it's a very interesting concept and we hope that we've at least at a minimum helped you kind of Bring this to your awareness and think about this a little bit differently, um, so that you can start to notice those times in your life where maybe you want it to matter a little bit more. Maybe you want it to matter a little bit less to kind of help you balance out your life in the best way possible.

Kevin: 47:59

Yeah. I mean, that goes to the seasons of your life that you were talking about earlier. I mean, I love this topic. We could go for hours on this topic, but I don't think that we should. I think this is a good, good synopsis. And again, it's bringing some awareness and maybe even just allowing. allowing our listeners to say, Hey, where, what level of importance am I giving these things? Do I have the ability to sort of pull back? Or am I so invested in this thing that I can't, I cannot step away from it.

Angie: 48:25

Yeah. So if you guys found this helpful, we would love it if you. Would go over to Apple podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review so that more runners can find the podcast. Please also feel free to share this with a friend, hit that share button. Um, if you're not currently following the show, it used to be subscribed to the show. Now it's follow the show. Um, just click on the, you know, the title real life runners or, or click on the, whatever podcast player you're listening to and make sure you hit the subscribe or the follow button so that you can be notified when our new episodes come out every Thursday. And as always, thank you guys for being here. We appreciate you. This has been the Real Life Runners podcast, episode number 361. Now get out there and run your life.